When is recoiling not recoiling

Discussion in 'Piston & Spring' started by Cooper_dan, May 18, 2019.

  1. Cooper_dan

    Cooper_dan Well-Known Member

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    Hypothetical question. I've had a look around but not found an answer yet.

    So for HFT, recoilless springers are in the open class. We take this to be semi-recoiless rifles such as the TX200SR, or twin piston rifles such as a Diana Giss/Whiscombe etc

    What if a new springer was made, one which was designed from the ground up to have minimum recoil but did not use twin piston or a sledge. What if the recoil was so low it could barely be discerned, but some measurement, maybe an accelerometer, proved it recoiled by 0.1mm or some other low number.

    How is it determined what is recoiling and what isn't? Where is the cutoff?

    I'm not thinking about any current tunes or rifles, or trying to find a loophole that will give me some advantage (I'm quite happy with my TX). Just a thought I've been having.
     
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  2. FPoole

    FPoole Active Member

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    So, what does the SR really stand for? Not an answer to your question, but just wondered. I was told that it was "Spring Recoiless", but my SR does recoil, you just don't feel it. I have a friend who bought his SR, new in box, and he told me, spring recoiless, was on the box.
     
  3. mrgeoff

    mrgeoff Active Member

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    Must be a lot of whiners in HFT, I have shot both a FWB300SU and a Diana 75 in springer benchrest, did very well, however I now shoot a mk2 TX200 with a bit more mass in the stock, and find that is less hold sensitive, thus more consistent and accurate than the supposed recoil less rifles!
     
  4. Cooper_dan

    Cooper_dan Well-Known Member

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    A lot of whiners in HFT? Not sure how you've got to that one.
    There must be a lot of benchrest shooters who can't read questions properly ;)
     
  5. Cooper_dan

    Cooper_dan Well-Known Member

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    I always thought SR was semi-recoiless. Maybe someone has a very old magazine or advert from when they first released it....
     
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  6. DAVALI

    DAVALI Member

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    With a lot of aftermarket parts to try and reduce the recoil of springuns I can see the reason for this post, in FT the class is “Piston” so can include all the twin piston, sledge type springuns, I use a mk1 TX200 internally un-modded but, with a heavy stock which makes hold sensitivity less of a problem but, it still recoils, I’m, at the moment, working on a TX200sr for use in the FT piston class the barrel of which certainly moves back when fired there is recoil felt but after, I presume, the pellet has left the barrel, twin piston types on the other hand do not appear to recoil at all!.
    Does this open the debate as to whether the recoiling class needs clarification for the various shooting competitions?.
    Dave.
     
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  7. Cooper_dan

    Cooper_dan Well-Known Member

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    In terms of clarification then:
    - physically measuring the amount of recoil (at the stock) wouldnt work. It would have to be done for every springer shooter, at every shoot. Not possible
    - clarify certain designs are 'open' class. I.e sledge or twin piston. This is possible but is open to new designs
     
  8. hmangphilly

    hmangphilly Floppy Quick Phil

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    If you're looking for a boundary pushing edge in the 'recoiling' class , just use a pcp and argue that it does recoil a little bit .......they all do .
     
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  9. Cooper_dan

    Cooper_dan Well-Known Member

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    I said at the end of my original post that i'm not doing that
    Its a hypothetical question. If a new design came out that was very very good, how does it get classified
     
  10. FPoole

    FPoole Active Member

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    We were lumped in with SR's and Whiscombes in the old days, but there are almost no spring gun shooters left, in my area. I always felt at a disadvantage to a Whiscombe shooting heavies at 16-17 ft. lbs. and my TX set at 12.
     
  11. Adam

    Adam Well-Known Member

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    In reality it's a non-issue. As said, in FT it's a "piston" class (BFTA; though regions use the Recoiling classification) and SRs and Whiscombes could compete in that class. I guess they have in the past but to my knowledge it's very rare to see either competing at a GP. I think it's unlikely you'd see someone rock up with one and consistently beat the top piston guys with it. With an SR particularly, you still need a good trigger technique and follow through, and what you gain on flat targets you might lose on very high or low shots due to gravity affecting the sledge movement. Whiscombes are so rare that I've yet to see one in the flesh on a course. Most spend their time locked in collectors' cabinets.

    I'd be interested to know has a BFTA or WFTF comp ever been won with a recoilless design since Piston class started?

    In terms of new designs.: any design that uses a mechanically driven piston to compress air during the firing cycle is subject to Newton's 3rd Law so will recoil. The only ways to remove that are to counterbalance that motion (Giss/Whiscombe) or let the rifle action recoil independently (SR). There's also variant of the SR system where the inner action and barrel slides inside an outer sleeve (Anschutz 380) but fundamentally it's the same. You can mitigate it by lighter pistons and heavier stocks but it'll never go away. There will be trials of all sorts of reduce bore tunes, but you get into diminishing returns. For example I can't see someone reliably getting 12 ft.lbs from a 10mm piston; you'd need something a 60cm stroke!

    I guess if your hypothetical scenario materialised and it got to a point where you had little chance unless you used one of the new wonder guns, then the rules might be looked at, but I don't see how any recoil measurement based system could be policed. unless like F1 the winners' rifles were to taken to scrutineering after the comp!
     
  12. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    Dean Wood won BFTA Piston years ago (10?) with an SR. That's the last time I saw one use to any effect.

    I shot around with someone using one of the Diana's in Portugal. He struggled more than I did with my swollen seal, broken spring guide and on day 3, 8 ft-lb.

    Considering it's really taken a long time to get to the bottom of why springers do what they do, and to handle that, adding a recoil reducing mechanisim into the equation probably just really complicates matters. I suspect the whizzers and SR's aren't tinkered with.
     
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  13. Rotherham Owl

    Rotherham Owl Air Arms Poster Boy

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    Out of interest. has anyone tried a Tony leach 22mm conversion on an SR?
     
  14. Nick G

    Nick G Active Member

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    No , not one of Tony's , though I tuned an SR a while back, that reduced the recoil to the point where the sled had to be set so light for it to work, that the slightest incline and it would slide back on its own . They need the recoil to work.
     
  15. Rotherham Owl

    Rotherham Owl Air Arms Poster Boy

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    Cheers Nick.
     
  16. FPoole

    FPoole Active Member

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    Since the 22 mm conversion has 90 mm of stroke, would it still work in an SR? I don't compete with my SR, but it is accurate with my special tune, which consists of a Maccari Blue Apex seal and a re-lube. The rest is factory original. It's a MarkI and I've put 10 shots in a row inside 1" at 55 yards, off my knee. It is much harder to cock and I don't want to put wear and tear on it, I have many other "regular" TX's for that.
     
  17. Alanok2002

    Alanok2002 Member

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    Like said in another post semi-recoiless as it recoils normaly but then its on a sledge that takes the said recoil so you dont feel it in the stock
     

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