Tuning Vs Performance

Discussion in 'Piston & Spring' started by skires, Oct 9, 2018.

  1. NeilM

    NeilM Well-Known Member

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    The counter to that, and we see this all the time at club / regional level is that when the initial shine wears off the new kit, usually at the second shoot after modification / acquisition either the shooter realises that the modifications have brought them no benefit, or more usually, those modifications are rubbished because they don't work.

    As a new springer shooter and long time pcp experimenter I can say from experience that it is useful to have someone knowledgable to bounce ideas off and who can try kit. My 97 was diagnosed as being 'too dry' despite my score being OK, a quick strip showed that to be exactly right. However, so often I have seen that inconvenient feedback from a knowledgable fellow shooter is ignored, the rifle / mods continue to be either rubbished or declared the greatest thing ever and shortly after the rifle is gone.

    One of our shooters who is very experienced with both springers and pcp's has recently taken to putting in the highest score of the day at regional FT shoots, using a slightly modified (trigger and hamster) Walther LGU..... I don't mean the highest springer score I mean THE highest score... talent is talent.
     
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  2. C.Eaton

    C.Eaton Confirmed Anschutz Nut...

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    I think the LGU and LGV for that matter are superb rifles straight out of the box with the exception of that trigger. Why on earth they don't rework the geometry to make it decent is a mystery; stick a record unit in an LGU and you probably have the best stock springer bar none.
     
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  3. Dale

    Dale Active Member

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    It doesn't need a Rekord trigger, just a redesigned trigger blade with the second stage screw about half the distance from the first stage adjuster than it currently is.

    Doing that will give a big advantage in leverage and get the best from the design.
     
  4. C.Eaton

    C.Eaton Confirmed Anschutz Nut...

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    Yep it seems crazy that Walther don't do this as a minimum. I think Rowan have the option of using different screw holes on their replacement unit which achieves the same result.
     
  5. Dale

    Dale Active Member

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    Even they didn't suss that out at first though...........
     
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  6. Adam

    Adam Active Member

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    Yes the new Rowan unit is a great option with the addition of the extra hole, as is Tony Leach's unit.
    However now owning 2 LGUs and an LGV and having set up each of their triggers (with OEM, Tony's and new Rowan) multiple times, I've now found my optimum "out of the box" settings for the OEM trigger.

    I wind in both trigger grubscrews several turns, starting with the forward screw. This shortens the overal length of pull, and hence gives a shorter first stage. I then wind in the 2nd screw to regain the 2nd stage stop just before the sear trips and by very small increments (1/8 turn max) I play with this to get the 2nd stage break as crisp as possible. I also dump the little spring at the front and back out the main weight screw all the way.
     
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  7. bigtoe

    bigtoe Member

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    LGU/LGV/Century trigger blades, full TX geometry, transforms the trigger, got 14 blades in stock. You have to lose the safety though...might bother some.

    Makes a good rifle a little better, just the cocking link rivets need sorting then ;-)
     
  8. bigtoe

    bigtoe Member

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    I have said many times you get used to what you shoot, i used to shoot 4 times a week out to 45yards, not competitively BUT i practiced a lot as i hunted a lot, all with springers. Now i started off with HW77's, all 25mm guns, spit and polish internals and they all shot lovely, i enjoyed shooting thru 8mm bell holes at 35yards with ease 10mm spinners at 40 yards again hit them plenty of times. I then got a HC and got messing with it, the one i showed the short stroke nose extension on my blog that everyone has copied (they forget i own that design by default in the UK without having to register it ;) ) however, i eventually sold that HC, i did not like it compared to my 77's, i did not get used to it.
    Now i have always shot springers, im out of practice now, it soon comes back although im hopeless judging strong wind... i have watched some PCP shooters buy a springer and be totally useless with it, and give up quite quickly. I have watched/chatted to PCP shooters who gave up, had a go with a 22mm gun and were able to shoot it well, right from the get go or real close to it, they were surprised it was easier to shoot.

    Now, the gun will be no more accurate, the shooter still has to do his part and be able to judge the wind etc, it may be just a little easier to shoot though.

    Also, funny to see a thread on the BBS having a go at Rex saying his TX is really a TX SR and he should shoot open class, i can't post over there so will state what he has here as it will make it over there anyway...
    145g piston, 94mm stroke (not really a short stroke is it ;) ), stock OEM piston rod with new piston nose, delrin rear guide, mk3 spring thats shortened, bespoke 22mm front seal backed by a 22mm O ring, a dual seal set up and a sleeved compression tube to 22mm. It recoils, it actually moves quite a bit, they all do, they move the amount they need to, not the amount they are forced to by being to big and to heavy. In short the gun is 20% more efficient or more by re engineering it, thats 20% at 11fpe like for like, so less energy in for the same energy out ;) I have actually been waiting for comments about 22mm being an unfair advantage...basically lets go back 30yrs and shoot old tech and you have to live with that!! Naah
    Also mentioned about capping tune cost to 100quid, well if i up the quantity i order i might be able to soak a tenner off so i hit that 100quid max limit, so everyone will still be shooting 22mm there after anyway ;)

    Rex
     
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  9. NeilM

    NeilM Well-Known Member

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    Don't try capping pcp tuning at £100, a bit of carbon tube and a muzzle brake and you are nearly there already!
     
  10. skires

    skires Well-Known Member

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    Nice post Tony.

    I agree with all you are saying ...

    You get used to what you shoot etc

    Interesting points that you are making that the tuning can help older/physically challenged shooters, and may get more PCP shooters giving springer a go and sticking with it rather than walking away because they find it too challenging.

    I too was wondering when the cries would appear to put the mega tuned springers in a different class.

    I'll go read the BBS. I was gutted when you were excluded from there. Nice though that you are posting on here now.
     
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  11. skires

    skires Well-Known Member

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    Okay ... I've read the thread on the BBS.

    Firstly ... UKAHFT won't want any more work by inventing a different class for 22mm springers ... or limiting springers to a 100 quid tune ... or having to go to the trouble of determining what is inside a rifle or how much money has been spent on it, to decide if it shoots in springer or Open.

    Despite all the constant talk on the internet about people buying springers to shoot HFT and then wanting mega tunes etc ... the number of people seriously shooting springer is very minimal. Probably not even worth running a class for. There may be several that give it a go over a series of Nationals, but there are only a few that qualify re number of shoots. Out of those few there are even less that are actually quality springer shooters.

    I had people saying to me ( probably a throw away comment on the car park ... but they meant it ) that I only shot springer so that I had a better chance of winning a Gonk. A big fish in a small pool syndrome.

    I joint top scored in a Worlds one year and came runner up in a one shot shoot off. I think I won a tankard. I have no idea where it is. I probably binned it years ago. So I have no interest in Gonks ... but that's just me.

    For me it was about me Vs the course, and I found shooting a recoil rifle gave me more of a challenge on more targets ( early days when courses were easier ). As courses got tougher I stuck with the springer.

    I would quite happily of shot in the Open Class with my springer. When I shot a tougher course, maybe at a NW shoot, I was interested as to what my score was compared with top PCP shooters like Dave Ramshead and James Mac, not some lad who had turned up with a standard TX in a standard stock and hadn't been shooting springers for long, and would probably get 38/60. That was how I gauged how I'd shot.

    So I'd throw all shooters in the same class. It's their choice what they shoot.

    If someone really is Gonk hunting in springer, because they aren't good enough to challenge the best in PCP, with a PCP, and their motivation to spend a decent amount of money on a 22mm tune is so they can be top springer shooter then that has no interest for me. As I said. if you look at how many people shoot springer class in the big comps, to a decent level, then it isn't really worth running a class for at all, let alone breaking it down into standard and mega tuned rifles.
     
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  12. bigtoe

    bigtoe Member

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    Skires, you keep saying mega tune, i don't regard my kit as a mega tune at all, i regard it as putting the rifle right more than a mega tune. Basically a TX200 is built to shoot best at around 14fpe in 177 and 16 to 17fpe in .22, which we know is not really okay for the UK , so i convert it to shoot well at UK power limits, the by product is the gun shoots nicer. Imagine 6yrs ago i created the first for me 23mm tune in a 77k, the first thing i notice is how much less spring i needed in the gun, i kept swapping 26mm guts back in vs 23mm and using the same spring with exact same preload from the 26mm set up i was pushing over 2fpe more energy 23mm but the gun felt to fast if not harsh, so i bought a new 97 spring and trimmed it and tested it, trimmed it some more etc and was shocked to see how shorter that spring ended up, in the end the 23mm tune was running 8mm total preload or so, it had moved from 42% efficient to 56% efficient at 11.2fpe, the spring for the 23mm tune pushed 7fpe in the 26mm piston. Now back then all we had were O rings, i know now a poly seal sized better makes more power/easier, i also know running a dual seal brings the power with the consistency of an O ring. That 77k now is down at 22mm with 89mm stroke and runs over 60% efficiency at 11.2fpe. My Diana's run silly efficiency, a 20mm D52 has me scratching my head as it appears to be over 70% efficient, this is mind boggling, i can't see why the manufacturers have just churned out the same crud for years when a lad in a shed with a few mates on the internet doing the same can essentially improve the guns by a huge magnitude.

    Regards people shooting 22mm, im not going to name drop but near all the top lads now shoot my kit, present world champs, ex world champs, plus upcoming world champs also, i have tuners from all over the world offering 22mm conversions of their own plus helping me create new products that help make springers better also, the technology is spreading all on its own, i have no control over it, i get a small slice of the cake which is all i can expect. I have no doubt what so ever AirArms have my kit in house, i know Umarex do also. AirArms have already noticed an increase in springer sales and asked trusted shooters where they feel springers are going and should they be looking at a new gun, obviously i would love to be part of a new gun but doubt that would ever happen, i have idea's and designs not shared, innovations that would in one case could revolutionize springers imo, the possibilities are endless but we need to break free of 30yr old designs and mentality.
     
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  13. NeilM

    NeilM Well-Known Member

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    I'm assuming you mean HFT World Champion, as the current FT World, European and GP Champion definitely does not use a 22mm piston in his TX.

    Technical question: Obviously in order to generate sufficient pressure behind the pellet you need to compress a given volume of air, so if you make the pistol a smaller diameter, does the stroke not need to be increased in order to get sufficient swept volume? If this is the case, how does a longer stroke make a rifle easier to shoot? I would have thought it demanded a much better follow through, something new (and not so new) shooters often struggle with.
     
  14. Cooper_dan

    Cooper_dan Active Member

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    Just read the BBS thread. Load of bollocks. At the end of the day the winner in any class will be the person who is best prepared, and judges the ranges and conditions best on the day.

    Unfortunately it's human nature to see someone doing well and try to find any reason for it that isn't simply hard work. The truth is that Rex shoots a hell of a lot, including (I think) every round of the UKAHFT this year. That's the kind of preparation that sets you up for success.

    If Rex beats me next year it will be due to experience and preparation, not what tune he has. And vice versa.

    Bollocks to the haters. Keep churning out the tuning kits. If it helps more people get into the recoiling class I'm all for it. (As long as they don't all get ahead of me :p)
     
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  15. bigtoe

    bigtoe Member

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    Mr Farbrother did not like 22mm, he tried an earlier incarnation and decided his mk2 set up was for him...no problem to me, you can not win them all. I am talking about HFT and FT though, plus regional champions from countries outside the UK, i have supplied over 130 screw in sleeve 22mm kits now and over 40 glue in sleeve ones, there are a LOT of my 22mm conversions out there just in TX's, never mind the 20+ Diana's i have done also.

    So onto your technical question...i will answer you with a question or 3 first.

    You need around 30CC of air minimum for 11fpe, would a HW 80 at 43mm stroke make 11fpe and you be able to cock it 1 handed?

    What do you call long stroke? What do you call short stroke? Does a 145g piston at 22mm dia fly faster than a 25mm 250g piston?

    Which generates pressure faster, 22mm or 25mm?

    Answers: the 80 will not do 11fpe if it did its 2 handed cocking for sure, however a TX at 22mm with 80mm stroke will for the same swept volume and you could cock it just with 2 fingers.

    Long stroke to me is 100mm plus, short stroke sub 80mm, mid stroke 90mm, my conversion with mk3 spring is 93mm stroke, this is purely to suit JSB pellets, i can do shorter, i prefer 90, chilli has an 83mm as do a few others.

    Which piston flies faster, the 22mm as it overcomes the pressure faster,

    22mm generates pressure faster than 25mm.

    Longer stroke smaller piston is more efficient than shorter stroke larger piston, its that simple, for me accounting for the compromises i make to balance things and build in longevity my ideal is 90mm stroke, 145g piston, 22mm dia.

    The difference in piston flight from 93 to 90mm is 0.000X seconds....i doubt you would ever notice it ;)

    On average a HW97 with stock or near stock internals with the 26mm piston is around 42% efficient, the TX around 45%, they recoil anything up to 5mm or more. Im running around 60% efficiency maybe a tad under, recoil is around 2.5mm or so. The Diana 52 hardly moves at all, one day i will work out what it should move them measure it, that has a 108g piston at 100mm stroke, incredible thing to shoot.
     
  16. NeilM

    NeilM Well-Known Member

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    Fascinating.

    So in essence a smaller diameter, lighter piston travels faster down the compression tube than a larger diameter heavier piston, makes perfect sense.

    I shoot a later model HW97 with modified piston / comp tube (don't know who did the work) and it recoils more than a factory standard TX200 full rifle (which I recently reviewed), but it is extremely consistent over the chrono and is accurate too, so I am not inclined to make any changes, but I am really interested in the various modifications that can be carried out.

    As for air rifle manufacturers, they will always lean towards the volume market be it for spring guns or pcp's, and presently that is the USA.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2018
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  17. skires

    skires Well-Known Member

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    I use the term mega tune in relation to the spit and polish tunes where people just finish the ends of springs, maybe fit a top hat and a polish ... or one of the drop in kits. The next level may be a tune where some machining of the piston has taken place plus buttons etc. I'm not sure I invented the mega tune phrase or picked it up from other posts somewhere.

    As per my original question ...

    I asked if the modern day tuning is resulting in higher scores from springer shooters. It matters not to me if all the top shooters are using 22mm tunes. In fact, if all the world's best springer shooters are shooting 22mm, and they are so advanced compared to standard, then I'd expect to see noticeable increases in scores.

    Look at the scores in UKAHFT recoil. The top PCP scores are right at the top 50's. The top series springer shooters are getting scores down to low 40's. I'm sure these averages are lower than Kyle was scoring with a V-Glide a number of years ago. I don't like mentioning names but Chilli was mentioned above and the set up he has ( 83mm ). Chilli won this year's UKAHFT recoil again so many congratulations to him. In the 9 shoots his low score was 42 ( top PCP that day was 58 ). He had a 43 ( top PCP score that day was 59 ). Top score 53 ( top PCP that day was 58 ). Averaging 47. A score of 42 with the HFT scoring system basically equates to killing 12 out of 30 targets. This isn't a go at Chilli ... it's typical of what I've seen with springers for years and the figures are there on the internet for everyone to see. The odd high score in the 50s which is within a certain number of points of top PCP and then some low scores. I'm just using it to see if the top tunes have changed that. Someone called Rex was mentioned above and that his rifle should be made to shoot in the OPEN class. I don't know the chap and I'm sure he's a splendid bloke. There was a Rex that shot in recoil this year in UKAHFT. I'm not sure if that's the same guy or what rifle he used. His low score was 37 and his high score was 49. Average 43.

    This is nothing to do with names or shooters. Other posters mentioned certain names. It's about a lot of talk about tuning over recent years, which has been fantastic to read, and actual numbers on scorecards, and whether there is actually an obvious difference being noted between rifles of a few years back and the rifles with the more modern tunes.

    As I keep saying ... top PCP shooters have an off day ( or tough/windy course ) and they drop a few points. The springer guys ( using the best tunes ? ) are still getting scores occasionally in the low 40's.

    So either the tunes aren't making that much difference ... or ... as I've said for ages ... the courses have been pushed to a point where recoiling rifles, no matter how minimal the recoil, have been pushed to the edge or beyond what the rifles/shooters can achieve 'consistently'. Another option is that, as I've mentioned before, the 22mm tune shooters still need a bit more time to get used to the rifles ... or we haven't yet seen a combination of top PCP shooter spending enough time with a 22mm tuned recoiling rifle to see what that yields.

    I'm not wanting 22mm or any tune to be proven no great advantage. I would be just as interested to see 22mm or modern tunes producing more consistently higher scores in the 50's.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2018
  18. IanC

    IanC Member

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    You and me both mate
     
  19. FPoole

    FPoole Member

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    At the present, I'm pretty happy with my one MarkIII that has the factory FAC MarkII piston. It's 5 mm shorter stroke than the MarkIII, but I use a softer spring to keep it at 12 ft. lbs. I'd really like one of the 22 mm kits, but I'm in the U.S. and it may be a bit of bother to get one here.
     
  20. KyleHampton

    KyleHampton New Member

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    a conventional Springer shouldn't be forced into the open class. I know Rex really well and no one wants to improve and win more than him. I've shot his "super tune" TX and it feels like my 25mm V-Glide. All it comes down to is practice and learning your rifle.

    The best Springer shooting I've ever seen was a few years ago by Dave Martin. I think it was at Fort ukahft, but he shot his TX200hc and destroyed all the other springers on the day. His TX200 sounded like it had a bag of nails thrown inside of it and it would rattle the teeth out of anyone in a 10ft radius of him. But as the old saying goes.... it's not what you have, it's how you use it.
     
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