Tuning Vs Performance

Discussion in 'Piston & Spring' started by skires, Oct 9, 2018.

  1. Amac

    Amac Active Member

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    Very true. One of the shooters I mentioned made a serious error of judgement on Saturday evening when he adjusted the position of the butt-pad pre competition on Sunday. He reckons it cost him five points as impact point had changed resulting in a few daft misses apparently. We all know how important it is to achieve the optimum stock position, and also how crucial it is to recheck zero if any alterations are made. That is why I was surprised to hear of this strange event post shoot.
    Still, I suppose some experimentation is also important to discover just what the optimum balance and contact points might be before settling on a "final" setting.
    If anything, I reckon that a properly fitting stock that balances correctly is just as , if not more important than any tune the action may have had.
    Andy
     
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  2. Cooper_dan

    Cooper_dan Active Member

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    It's not too pretty but I've knocked up a butt pad that rotates and translates in all 3 axis (so 6 degrees of freedom). Will take a few weeks of fiddling but interested to see where it all ends up
    IMG_20181127_174517455.jpg
     
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  3. Amac

    Amac Active Member

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    Blimey Dan! That will hopefully allow you to discover your own "optimum position." It doesn't matter a jot what it looks like. If it results in additional support and stability, its job done as far as i am concerned.
    Andy
     
  4. mrgeoff

    mrgeoff Active Member

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    There are 2 main types of spring gun tuning:
    1. Optimise what you have got in terms of spring guide fit, component finish, lubes etc
    2. Change stuff as it all wasn't quite right to start with (short stroke, bore size, TP size, seals may also fit in here)

    Number 1 will transform nearly all rifles, even if you get a good one. This often helps with the performance, as it helps you feel more confortable with your equipment.

    If you try to do 2. to an already good rifle, the difference in performance could be limited, but there are some good examples where short stroke can help some people a lot.

    I would recommend the polish, lube and fit type tune on anything, even a TX200, had 2 recently, where by doing this put the power up between 0.5 and 1ftlb, which means by bringing down the pre-load etc to give the same power as when you started, means less effort to cock, and less thump on firing.

    There are rifles where the 2nd tune is necessary, like a BSA Meteor which usually struggles to run much over 9lbft, with some wizard tuning can be a full power rifle, with the same low cocking effort and tame shot cycle of the 9ftlb beginnings.


    Geoff.
     
  5. Bill Fowler

    Bill Fowler Member

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    Forgive me I'm still getting my head around this sport but how can adjusting your butt pad make the point of impact of the pellets alter. I know that if you alter your scope height to the barrel or move it somewhat differently to what it was can change the trajectory of the pellets.
     
  6. Cooper_dan

    Cooper_dan Active Member

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    With a springer, the way it recoils will always affect the POI in some way. The exact position of the rifle when the pellet leaves the barrel will effectively introduce hold over or hold under in relation to your zero.
    Changing the butt pad height will change the line of action of the recoil (determined by the solid point of contact, i.e your shoulder).

    With a low butt pad, the line of action of the recoil might be 50mm under the axis of the barrel. With a high butt pad the line of action of recoil might only be 10mm under the axis of the barrel. In both case the rifle will react slightly differently and the muzzle position on pellet exit will alter slightly between the two.

    This isn't usually a problem as you will hold the rifle in exactly the same way every time, so this additional hold over or hold under will be the same every time, i.e the pellets will land where you expect.

    However in HFT when you have angled or weird positional shots, the butt pad might be sitting in a different place in your shoulder without you realising, due to the angle of the shot. Then we miss and get angry/confused.

    This is also why zeroing the gun out of the shoulder, then resting the butt on the ground for that one awkward shot will always end in tears.

    Such is life in the recoiling class :)
     
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  7. MickyFinn

    MickyFinn I❤HFT

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    Believe me, when shooting a Springer, almost any change causes a poi shift ie wearing a different glove or coat, adjusting the cheek piece height/angle & as mentioned above butt pad :rolleyes:;):p
     
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  8. Adam

    Adam Active Member

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    True to a point but not the full story. The shoulder is not a solid point of contact. There is some give in it, determined by amount of padding (clothing or, ahem, natural). The line of action of recoil is also acting against the centre of gravity of the rifle.

    If there’s a lot of give, or the rifle is actually not contacting the shoulder, the balance will be the major factor. If there’s no give, like a solid butt is hard up against a stone wall, the balance won’t be much of a factor.
     
  9. blacklab

    blacklab Member

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    when shooting a springer if you breath in the wrong direction it changes the poi :D:eek:;););)
     
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  10. Malcolm lockhart

    Malcolm lockhart Member

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    I believe a tune is a personal thing, what suits one person may not another.
    After the basic tunes, smoothing out the action, dealing with temp changes, there's the feeling of fast and not so fast cycles.
    Finding what suits the firer and the ability to constantly and easily repeat, tied with reasonable practice, will without any doubt show vast benifits over a standard gun.
    The gun will be no more accurate then it was standard, but tuned, the ability to hit more targets will be.

    Malcolm.
     
  11. skires

    skires Well-Known Member

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    Just thinking out loud ... and please allow for the hint of tongue in cheekiness ...

    I learned a long time ago that as a shooting sport HFT, in it's present format, and springer shooting don't really mix. The sport is almost designed for non recoiling rifles, given it's allowed positions.

    It's sort of like a twist on an Olympic High Jump comp. The athletes originally had to jump over a bar and the bar was set at a certain level. After a few years the athletes realised that they could learn certain new techniques that meant that they could jump several inches higher. They also started using better footwear including some very lightweight track shoes that had super springy souls that meant they could jump even higher. So, to test the field and find an outright winner, that bar had to keep being raised. So far we are talking about the Open 0.177 PCP shooters. Now then ... along come this group of crazy dwarves, who say that they want to enter the comp in their own category, but they will do the jumping in lead boots. Everyone laughs ... but the dwarves keep telling everyone that it's actually more fun using the lead boots than the lightweight springy souled track shoes. Yeah ... of course it is! The dwarves train and practice really hard and on the odd day one or two of them manage to jump nearly as high as the springy souled guys. They can't keep doing that though and on some days the dwarves look right tw*ts and only jump half as high as the other guys.

    So the dwarves start thinking!

    We don't want to join the rest of the boring b*st*rds and use the same shoes as them ... but these lead boots are making this silly difficult. So we'll get a fancy cobbler to make us boots that look like the lead boots but we'll swap the lead for something much lighter. So basically swapping the lead boots for some heavy leather ones. So trying to close the gap between the lightweight springy soul track shoes and the lead boots.

    In some 'easier' comps the dwarves do ok ... but when it's a really tough comp and that bar gets pushed a long way up ... the dwarves really struggle. Occasionally the odd dwarf gets everything perfect on the day and gets pretty close to the top bar height of the day ... and everyone cheers and proclaims that the God of all Dwarf Heavy Boot High Jumpers has been found. Then the next time out ... he trips on take off, lands flat on his face, and looks a real knob.

    So the bottom line ... It's a topic that can give plenty of folk a lot to talk about on internet sites, especially over winter, and those fancy cobblers will mesmerize folk with all kinds of technobabble ... but the bottom line is ... Small folk in heavy boots trying to jump over a very high bar ... just f***ing silly.
     
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  12. Nick G

    Nick G Active Member

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    I shoot FT, so a lot of you hft chaps will say its not the same because of the sitting position, but we have a couple of Dwarfs, that beat over three quarters of the pcp lads regularly, and occasionally beat them all. Super Dwarf ?
    Oh just remembered shot my first sports air rifle comp earlier this year, with my lead boots, shot it sitting, as I don't like lying in the mud and dog pooh, and came second overall.
     
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  13. Amac

    Amac Active Member

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    Lead boots analogy is brilliant!!!! It will never be as easy to jump as high with said diving boots, but those that wear them seem to enjoy it, although without occasional rocket power it will indeed be very difficult to get over the bar on a regular basis.
    A great description of how the gun moves under recoil in various positions as well Dan. Your stock is certainly coming along nicely! Oh, and a great performance today for the mechanical brigade with your impressive 56. Well done.
    My personal view on shooters using springers in competition, is that many wish to take on the challenge of trying to master a living gun that punishes the shooter so easily if
    the shot release is not managed perfectly every time. As Dan has explained, due to the sometimes challenging positions, it is just so much harder to record a score that will challenge the top PCP shots. There are however a few shooters who have the ability to occasionally match if not beat them. I think the challenge of these top springer shooters is not necessarily to try and beat all-comers on a frequent basis, but like many of us, just to enjoy the challenge and try and beat a personal best.
    The bottom line is that it is just so much easier to record a decent score using a PCP, but we all knew that anyway!
    Andy
     
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  14. Adam

    Adam Active Member

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    Dwarves in lead boot, love it! :)
    I think shooting FT there isn't quite as big a gap between the athletes in track shoes and the leaden-booted dwarves as with HFT. So maybe like regular folks in lead boots. :)
     
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  15. skires

    skires Well-Known Member

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    Well ... My comments were very tongue in cheek and a bit of fun.

    Remember the dwarf with lead boots on was from the early days, representing a non tuned gun ( to stay somewhat in line with the thread ). The tuned springers that most modern serious target shooters used was represented by the dwarf with the leather boots on.

    The top FT guys, including Nick ( cobbler ), will be using tuned rifles that probably have FT stocks ( so adding plenty of extra weight ) and a much heavier scope than the HFT guys use ( Nick recently commented that his rifle is the most sophisticated rifle out there ... so hardly lead boots ).

    This really isn't anything to do with FT vs HFT and springers ... but ... for those that read these threads and maybe aren't familiar ...

    My comments re springers and HFT have always been about the difference in shooting a very tough, top end, course between a PCP and a springer. Most shots taken prone with the butt allowed to be rested on the floor. The padded gloved fore hand rested on the floor and the front of the rifle rested on that. That's basically as steady as it gets and makes shooting with a PCP relatively easy. Hence courses pushed to where they are with many micro and mini kills. Rare to see a 40mm kill at any range prone ( 24 out of 30 shots ). Shooting the springer like that doesn't give the same 'easiness' as a PCP. The springer can and will react if you rest it on the floor. If the shooter has to bring the front hand off the floor he has a rock solid peg hammered in the ground to rest on. That's great for a PCP. Rest a springer against that solid peg ( or firmly rest the hand against it ) and again you will get a reaction from a springer.

    4 out of 6 positionals in HFT are 'rested' against a tree or a long post etc. So positional targets have been driven tougher. Again, resting the springer against the tree and it's a disadvantage and not an advantage.

    Try a prone shot with just a tad of elevation from horizontal on the target at 25 yards ( 15mm kill ). That butt has to go much lower and that fore hand comes further back from a normal contact point. Again no problem with the PCP but a change in POI with the springer and with just 15mm to play with it's an easy miss.

    When I started shooting FT style with the springer I noticed that once I had become familiar with my sitting position, I could take most sitting shots with my fore hand, on rifle, and butt, in shoulder, in the same position. I could accommodate most angles and still keep the contact points the same. The odd really angled shot gives problems but kill sizes are generally bigger. So no real disadvantage there to the PCP shooters apart from having to accommodate the recoil with the grip and release and follow through technique. The positionals are all unsupported. No disadvantage. The kill sizes are generally greater with fewer micro kills. Yes the max distance is greater. The long ones though are sitting and most decent springer guys will achieve sub 25mm groups from the sitting position at 55 yards. I don't think springer HFT shooters miss many of the 45 yard prone 35mm kills. It's the micro and mini kills with angles thrown in, or subtle changes in position, where a tiny POI shift causes a miss, that caused me a lot of problems.

    So it's not really comparing springer HFT with springer FT. It's comparing the differences between shooting a tough HFT course ( evolved from rock solid stances with dead rifles rested on the floor ) with a PCP or a springer, and shooting a FT course with a PCP or a springer. In my opinion, the difference is far greater on a HFT course.

    Hence I'd say a FT shooter using a tuned springer in a custom FT stock with a heavy scope, is probably the same height as the other high jumpers, but maybe wearing a pair of Doc Martins instead of the lightweight super springy souled track shoes.

    ( It's just fun guys ).
     
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  16. Amac

    Amac Active Member

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    Definitely agree with your analogy concerning the horrible angle/tiny kill zone analogy. These are the shots that are so difficult with the springer due to the way the gun recoils and its recoil "path." I also firmly believe that the ability to release the trigger with minimal disturbance on aim is even more important with the mechanical gun.
    It can be noticeable, particularly with novice springer shots, that in anticipation of the recoil, the trigger can on occasion be pulled, rather than squeezed softly. As we all know, this results in missed shots. I have sometimes encouraged novice springer shots to try going through the normal firing cycle with the safety still engaged. This will allow them to see how much they might be moving the shot off target due to incorrect trigger release.
    Not that this is news for the experienced springer shot of course, but it can result in disappointing scores when the shooter first attempts to nail those 15mm kills in competition.
    Andy
     
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