to the technical bods and those in the "know" reference pellets....

Discussion in 'General Airgun Chat' started by Bellerophon, Apr 28, 2011.

  1. Bellerophon

    Bellerophon Active Member

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    Well that was a long winded title and it's not exactly clear is it, so apologies for literary lapses.

    Now the problem I have is or the theory I have is.....

    that modern pellets are not what they used to be. Discuss.

    Now here's my findings, there's a little bit of a story to go with this so bear with me and please don't go to sleep (Oi! No sleeping at the back!). About 2 1/2 years ago I had an awesome batch of JSB 4.52's, they were the magic batch, true story! But saying that JSB's were generally very good anyway and most batches with exceptions of a few were very good and easily fell in to the bracket of clinical. So naturally I bought alot of these pellets and these lasted me until about 18 months ago and I switched batches but my shooting teatered off due to other things.
    Then about 14 months ago my shooting came to an absolute stand still due to an up and coming excursion to one of the world's true **** holes, so basically I fell out of the shooting "loop" or out of the shooting "know" and in the past i was very much in the "know" and looking back it's surprisining how on the ball with shooting development i was etc.
    Now fast forward 14 months and I'm due to shoot my first competition back in the "loop" after a free "holiday"and it's the bloody worlds and i have like a week to prep. for it(nice one Kieran). So out comes the ol' rifle and i start pellet testing and in the end i settle on some pellets that are semi respectable and I tested atleast a dozen type of pellet in varying head sizes, brands and batches and then ones i settle on were the best of the lot but by no means great, in fact a little shoddy. For the record i'm not trying to find excuses for misses at the worlds before someone jumps on that band wagon.
    So over the past few days I've been bored and I'm blessed with zero range in my own garden that goes to 35y but it does make a sort of wind bowl and from past experiences grouping or testing in my garden is best left to late evening when typically the wind dies down. So for the past few evenings i've been trying to find some mega pellets again. my test bed initially was my LG300 but then I used my MPR later on as a sort of confirmation tester.
    So to the testing, first up the batch i used for the Worlds and I'll be honest they were poor. So i tryed every other pellet i had available to me, Mozzies, JSB 4.52's (3 batches), Accupell(yes I was desperate), Express, JSB 4.53 (2 batches) and all groups were to be honest poor and some were shocking in my opinion. For the record all groups were shot off a fron sand bad rest (Caldwell ) and rear bean bag and Scopes used were on the highest mag(x14 in both cases). So VFG time.
    Post VFG and the groups were the same probably worse but the wind had started to do some weird things and I was beginning to get a little frustrated and to be honest that's not the best combo for succsessive testing. Took and break an brought out my MPR and tried with that, very similar results! Que very frustrated shooter(me).
    Roll on 3 hours and I decide to try again but this time i raid my gun cuboard which is full of all sorts of shooting odments I've aquired over the years and low and behold I find half a tin of the magic batch and some old school Lazadomes, now the bad news. The magic batch were rejects that i'd put to one side and when i used to weigh pellets all over and under weight pellets went in the reject tin(the tins even clearly marked "******* ****", true story). So out came these pellets.
    I tried again first with mozzies, results just over 16mm edge to edge 5 shot groups, and the actual patterns were just odd. Re-tryed the Worlds batch of pellets about the same and then tried alot of other batches i had tried previously. All groups were in like a 3 pointed star formation and the mean point of the group would shift from group to group. So all groups shot with these pellets were of a similar pattern. So clutching at straws i break out the lazadomes which are atleast 4 years old and the group alot better, 3 groups 10mm edge to edge, but this batch is long discontinued and i've only got about 20 left.
    Que the rejects and bearing mind these pellets could differ in weight by up to 1.2 grains if my memorey serves me right. Bang, 7mm edge to edge straight away, next group 6mm and so on. the rejects work better than any other pellet i'm using.
    So now heres the thing all other batches I've been trying are relativeley new(last 12 months) so why is it they ALL get there arses kicked by old school pellets. Now personally initially I'd of put it down to my barrel not liking them pellets but 12(yes 12 ) new batches, not co-incidence. So has anyone had something similar.

    Now the importan bit could someone poinbt me in the direction of some decent pellets please. I thought I'd post this on here as opposed to the BBS because the more technical shooters frequent this site a bit more then the BBS. So gents any suggestions?

    Cheers K
     
  2. AndyIoW

    AndyIoW Member

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    Keiran,

    Sort of got the same issue as you as trying to find the cause of why there are the occasional pellets 'dropping out' of a decent group. I was testing various pellets 2 weeks ago but the my rifle decided to throw its own spanner in the works as well :rolleyes: with a broken firing valve.

    At the time I was shooting groups with JSB's 4.52 and 4.53 and Bisley Superfield. It was during the Superfield group shots that the valve went. The 10shot bench groups I got at 50yds were( Height by Width edge to edge)
    4.52's 20mm by 40mm
    4.53's 21mm by 42mm
    Superfield 10mm by 24mm (only 6 shots of which 4 hit the horizontal line I was using as a reference and the other2 were above and below the line)

    All of these were pellets straight from the tin. The only thing I noticed was that the Superfield were much tighter when pushing the bolt forward (Ripley AR5s).

    Will be carrying on some more testing on Monday when I get my rifle back. Also intend to use a Combro with a serial lead to record the velocities and a card to mark the fall of shot. If i had something that would allow me to measure the windspeed at target I would be using that as well.

    Just from this I am beginning to think that the actual pellet size critical, as measuring JSB's with a vernier the head sizes seemed to be the same for 4.52 and 4.53 at 4.49mm and the skirts at 4.65mm.

    Will be measuring a sample of each pellet tomorrow for reference and using this bunch I hope on Monday weather being all good.
    JSB 4.52's, 4.53's, Bisley Superfield, Long Range Gold, H&N Silhouette, FTT, RWS Superfield, Superdome
    Falcon Accuracy Plus, Crosman Accupell, Premier (also have an unopen box of Die#2's), Webley Mosquito, Lazadome

    On a side note I had the same issue with a Rapid 7 in .22 about 15 years ago nothing would group on a sheet of A4 paper indoors at 30yds. An old blue tin of oxidized Eley Wasps shot a 1/2" group rested with H&N FTT coming in at 5/8" rested. The next tin of Wasps I got were like a shotgun so stuck with the H&N.
     
  3. Dave Ramshead

    Dave Ramshead England HFT Team squatter

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    yep, newer pellets are generally poo :D

    I even had some jsb made pellets which had the same batch label but were physicaly different pellets in the tin.

    JSB did a fantastic job producing a pellet to capture the competition market which at the time was way ahead of the crosman prems & H+N baracuda / Biz Mags. It appears though JSB are now taking customers for granted in terms of QC / cost and it's only a matter of time before shooters switch to something that works better.

    Mid winter I changed to express as they appear to be made with a much tighter weight tolerance, but even these shoot different batch to batch.
     
  4. 5teve L

    5teve L STOP ! HAMMER TIME !

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    The batch of 4.52 exacts I have at the moment aren't too bad but I picked up a tin of 09 with white tape insted of the usual red tape to seal them & they were like shooting a shotgun, they would put out 2, or sometimes 3 different groups @ 25 yards !
    I hope I can find another batch the Steyr likes or I will have to swap to express I think.
     
  5. NJR 100

    NJR 100 Because I`m AWESIME !!

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    You used cleaning felts to clean only?
    i would try a good clean with a napier pull through kit, then about 50 pellets to re-line.
    I find the cleaning felts only good for taking "some" of the dirt out.

    Try sizing the water Express (What batch express) pellets to 4.49. That should produce tight groups.
    Seen Walters that will group "one hole" at 55 yards with such a set up.
     
  6. mr dink

    mr dink Member

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    Yep i found the same as Dave about the make up of some express when you look up the skirt some have pointy bottoms and some have flat ones I even found a few exact in a express tin :eek: and they say it,s not worth wieghing:D the pointy ones shoot well in my 400 so hft is sorted but i v just got 5 different batch,s of exact for ft using my pro target which has just been sorted by Rammy, but the best iv had is same as you K 15 mm at 38 yds going to size to 451 after a barrel clean.
    It,s nice to read that the top shooters are having the same problem,s though.:D
     
  7. Bellerophon

    Bellerophon Active Member

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    Used a VFG kit and then aftwards applied some napier lube to a felt and went through the barrel using a VFG normal wad and the rod. In past experiences the VFG kit generallt does the buisness and IMO is better than a pull through. But can understand the concept behind it.

    cheers K
     
  8. bootneckbob

    bootneckbob Active Member

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    I've found the same. My last batch of JSB were great, this batch are pant's in comparison. I've posted a thread on here recently about it and cleaning my barrel.
    I've just ordered 4.51, 4.53s (a tin of each) from intershoot to try out some more tests.

    Sometimes I think we're all to anal, but these pellets (even at my level) make it a bit of a lottery.
     
  9. Bellerophon

    Bellerophon Active Member

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    I don't think it's been anal just whats the point in settling for second best when the best is there.
     
  10. JAGXKRS

    JAGXKRS Sparky's Bodyguard

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    Heard some bad things said about the latest batch of JSB's:eek:
     
  11. bootneckbob

    bootneckbob Active Member

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    Where? That's what I mean, the best is not consistently there, (JSB 4.52) in this case so we keep chasing the best pellet or batch .

    Don't read to much in to my anal comment Kieran!
    Being the best sometimes requires it, as you well know!
    ATB, and an interesting discussion.

    Maybe we need to weigh and size all our pellets ourselves? I guess many of you already do, and to be honest, I don't mind doing it. But as has already been said the quality now means half the pellets are sh*te, where before most were on the ball.

    I guess there's not enough money in field pellets to warrant the QC that some target pellets get.
     
  12. Bellerophon

    Bellerophon Active Member

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    Don't worry bud I didn't read anything into that comment. Your very right in saying the best isn't consistently there but there must be some good current batches out there, surely?

    With reference to weighing pellets in my past findings I found that generally speaking you have to be something special shooting wise to notice the difference between weighed and unweighed pellets when shooting a comp. It's just not generally possible to consistentley replacate the steadiness of a bench from either the prone or sitting position. You can only notice the difference in weight off a bench and a nigh on perfect day and when do we get those in the UK?

    As for sizing pellets i haven't really delved into sizing them, I was always under the impression that short sharp high pressure burst of air pushing a pellet down the barrle may of done all the sizing. but saying that I have recently sized pellets and I may well invest in a variety of sizes just to see what the crack is and who knows i may even start sizing them, if it works thens sod it.

    Your right in saying the moeny isn't in the "field" pellet market to warrant good QC but years ago when pellets were much cheaper the QC was mega(or hoofing inyour case:D) so I think that JSB are just not changing the dies as much, but to be quite frank I don't know enough about it to make proper judgement.

    None the less it's prompted some interesting discussion on here so cheers for all the input guys and keep it coming.

    Cheers K
     
  13. Charlts

    Charlts Getting dusty

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    Mate, the sooner you pop round the sooner your problem gets solved.;)
     
  14. mikewills8904

    mikewills8904 walthers last the course

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    you are correct kerian the older batches of jsb 4.52 are a lot better than the new ones ,i was lucky to pick up quite a few tins of the 09 batches .

    tried some newer ones and they are pants , i know a few boys have gone over to express , group well but they are not for me ,
     
  15. AndyIoW

    AndyIoW Member

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    The theory could be sound on that the air pressure would size them. But having a think over a cuppa this afternoon, if the pellet head and skirt are not concentric to each other then it may 'throw' off the pellet. Considering when I measured a number of pellets the skirt is usually on average 0.15mm bigger than the head. Such as in JSB 4.52's I have measured the average head size to be 4.495mm and the skirt 4.62mm.

    I have been watching some videos on long range shooting in America where the location of the bullet into the throat of the barrel. I may actually push out a pellet that has been seated by the probe to see what happens.

    In some of the recent Airgun World and some of the last Airgun Sport issues there have been some articles on pellets and their flights
     
  16. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    i've seen a good batch vary as well. H was eating humble pie when we found our good batch would not group and that the fall and rise could perhaps not been wind after all... i picked out another tin from the batch and they were better.

    weighed groups dont seem any tighter than unweighed groups, and even picking different weights doesn't see a shift in POI in my experience, however, better grouping pellets have a better weight consistency.

    sizing seems to tighten groups, but not to the same degree as a good shooting batch, which shoot well unfettered from the tin. H thinks so as well. But you need to find the size for the barrel, and i suppose some barrels may not like it, but 4.48 or perhaps smaller seems to suit the wallies.

    i think it's down to just finding the batch and going with that... and buying as much as you can, when you can... stated head size, make and label are irrelevance to the target anyway...
     
  17. Bellerophon

    Bellerophon Active Member

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    Right lads where can I aquire some 4.48 and 4.49 pellet sizers? Any ideas lads.

    Cheers K
     
  18. villiers

    villiers Self appointed antipimp

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    UK Neil made my ones:)
     
  19. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    same here :)
     
  20. rogb

    rogb Señor Member

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    Good point, I have often wondered when I have measured pellets, just where the 4.52 is in a 4.52? :confused::D The die might be but the pellets ain't, same goes for all the other head sizes.

    Only time the measurement will be right, it seems, is when they go through a sizer. Unless you're sizing down to 4.48 for Walthers, the head won't get much of a squeeze, just the skirts.

    Time for Kieran to visit Ryan, I reckon:D
     

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