Target "calling", a healthy discussion

Discussion in 'Hunter (HFT) & Field Target (FT)' started by Bellerophon, Sep 4, 2018.

  1. Bellerophon

    Bellerophon Active Member

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    And this is an element where us shooters need to display more humility and awareness to those who are marshalling. They are giving up their free time so WE can have an enjoyable SAFE day. I honestly believe in some instances we need to take that "poirot moment" and consider those doing the thankless task that is marshalling. My ten pence
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2018
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  2. bootneckbob

    bootneckbob Active Member

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    I had a quick look through the rules but was unable to find the answer to my question which is what happens to everyone else, time wise, when there's a stoppage? What I read was:
    When the cease fire is over the clock is restarted when the competitor has reached the same state as when the cease fire was sounded.

    Not entirely sure how that is measured but I'm thinking and believe I read on here somewhere that they get or should get 30 seconds if its already under that? After all, it's not your fault if someone calls just before you are ready to let the shot go, well I know we would carry on until the whistle goes but you get my point I hope.
     
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  3. Bensile

    Bensile Well-Known Member

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    Right here goes. Please bear in mind I do not claim to be even close to one of the best but I do have my moments and tend to hit more than I miss.

    Point one. I have called 2 targets in 7 years of shooting competition. Those that know me we understand that's about 9,450 targets. Okay I do not confess to have cleared every round but chances are I hit a target that has been called by someone else.

    Point two. One call was a string that was stuck and one I split 12 o'clock and the paddle went part back so one point and very embarrassed.

    Point three. Targets suffer blunt force trauma every shot but still I have only found 0.01% of targets I've shot to be defective. Now those that do stats will work out that's not a lot.

    Point four. The threat of loosing an extra point would not have deterred me from calling the targets I did call.

    Point five. I can not honestly claim that those many targets I missed on average 7 per course that I hit the target area. I have hit many a split that has gone mind you.

    Point 6. We have targets on practice course that have been there 3 years and they still fall every time. No maintenance (go figure).

    Point 7. There is no issue for calls of strings, branches, twisted targets, leaves dropping down due to rain/wind and zombie attacks.

    Point 8. Majority of calls are not for point 7. Except when there is only 2 to 3 calls on a shoot. Strings break, rabbits chew strings, branches break in wind, rain makes them drop, straps stretch and zombies are just wrong.

    Point 9. The volunteers/press ganged marshals are human. They have emotions and try the best of their ability without a grumble. Having spent a lot of time in professional sport I'm aware that you put yourself in these positions then people will have a go regardless of your ability. There is a certain spectator at a certain club that even had a go at me when I gave a decision in their favour.( try and work that one out). Respect them and the decision. Even the top officials in professional sport make errors. That's why we have video referee's, on pitch reviews and goal line technology. We are having a go at a non paid person with a stick with a spring on the end of it.

    Point 10. I have seen about 6 targets replaced in that time. 2 of which was because the links went and would not reset. The other 4 due to a question on the falling of the traget. Add that to the 2 I've called that's 0.05% in 7 years of shooting.



    Conclusion

    for me a penalty should be given for a call proven that the target is functioning correctly. However it does not stop a group of shooters ganging together if it's just yellow card. So I'm actually in favour of a score dock. Tend find the top 3 in any shoot are within a point so a 0.5 dock would drop them from this. Also shows on the score sheet. Not in favour of name and shame but those wanting to call 2 targets would need to go for expensive couch treatment. Let them call as many as they want the scores will show it and it'll soon calm down.

    Dock points for me and look out for zombies.

    On time for me it resets for all shooters not involved in the call.
     
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  4. madplinker

    madplinker Active Member

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    Hi
    I have marshalled a good few HFT shoots and most of the time the caller is wrong after target has been checked and target found to be working fine. I think if you call a target and is fine you should get a point deducted from score.
    If this happened it would stop divas and chancers calling targets all the time.
    And the
    shoot would run more smoothly.
     
  5. biwain

    biwain Tree bark and paint chipper Champion

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    Both in Archery and Darts, if you split an opponent's Arrow/Dart or your own, you lose the score from that Arrow/Dart as it is deemed not in the boss or board.

    Not only losing the score from said Arrow/Dart but also losing a good Arrow/Dart flight in the process.

    However unfair the rule is, everyone must abide by it.

    We need black and white rules with no grey areas!

    We can discuss the why's and wherefore's till the Cows come home but it's not a point everyone will ever be in agreement on.
     
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  6. skires

    skires Well-Known Member

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    Points I've noted so far ...

    There seems a divide between two trains of thought ...

    One group seem to be saying that quality targets, even ones that have been on practice ranges for years and hit many thousands of times, if set in place properly, don't fail to fall ( fail so infrequently as to not warrant shooters calling fail to fall ). Others seem to be saying that even quality targets that are set in place properly, will have 'in comp' fail to fall problems, and as such are suggesting that shooters must be still allowed to call targets for fail to fall.

    Which is it? Just how many targets that are called, for splitters or just by chancers hoping to cheat the wind, are actually found to be a faulty target due to a mechanism fail or a string that has snagged in between shots?

    Can we answer that please or try and get to that answer? I know we will get shooters that will say a Championship can be decided on one target, so if they think they've hit it and a chance of winning a gonk they should be able to call. A Championship can be decided if the wind suddenly gusts on one shooter but not another. It could be decided because a chancer has gained more time on a target and the wind then drops.

    Are the number of fail to fall calls ( proven to be correct ) significant enough to outweigh chancers getting extra time and a more favourable wind and spoiling the event for the many who are fed up of whistles blowing?

    What are the stats?
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2018
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  7. chrisc

    chrisc Lucky git

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    Without any hard data:(

    I reckon a decent guess would be that at least 90% of target calls are for splits/misses.
     
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  8. biwain

    biwain Tree bark and paint chipper Champion

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    They are more Judges than Marshall's until they have a rule book?
     
  9. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    Whilst I don't have stats, most times I've seen a target called in FT (BFTA and Winter Leagues) it's been the target at fault. That said, its not such a regular occurrence. A bad shoot would be 4-5 calls on a 40 shot, 5-6 on a 50. Sometimes there's 1-2 all day.

    WFTF Poland I wasn't present at, I was told there was between 20-30 calls and the organisers said most were found to be ill founded calls. However some attending said they weren't and that one target was called repeatedly before being checked at the end of the session and then discarded from the results.

    I don't think you're going to put this one in a box because it's discussing different formats, at different levels. Some of which really don't have a problem.

    The discussions were started by one competition, run once a year. :)
     
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  10. skires

    skires Well-Known Member

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    This really isn't a criticism of Marshalls ... just a fact of life. We need these guys so the shoot can go ahead.

    In cricket we have umpires. Local blokes who get paid about 50 quid for a Saturday afternoon. These do receive 'Training' and attend regular meetings for updates etc.

    However, they are human beings, not robots. It really isn't uncommon for an umpire to rule against an 'unknown' nobody, either with bat or ball. Umpires definitely rule in favour of the big names and captains. There is far more pressure on them to give the league's top batsman out or an overseas professional who is getting paid £400 a game. Little Joey who wanders in at number 11 who nobody knows ... First time on the pads and it's time for tea and a sit down for a cake or two.

    The point is, target checkers or not, there is always going to be some human element, or subjectiveness, when a Marshall is checking a called target. If he's wandered out 50 yards to check a target that last year's Champ has called, or this year's leader has called, then he's under a lot of pressure to say that that target is fine and it's a 'X' or '1' on the scorecard. If he can find a way to say that target has failed he probably will do. Far less pressure if it's Johnny nobody.

    It's just fact.

    So the more you can eliminate that human error ... the less Marshalls have to make these calls ... the better.
     
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  11. skires

    skires Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Rob.

    That's sort of the end of that then. If most times the target is at fault and it's 1-5 calls per 40 target comp ... what's the problem? Just carry on.

    World's ... Use decent quality targets and check that they are secured properly. Maximise efficiency of checkers. I'd try and collect data for number of calls Vs call result ( fail to fall, non fail to fall, upheld, rejected ) for a year or two ... and if the chancers are in abundance then have a meeting to discuss whether a penalty for false fail to fall calls is warranted.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2018
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  12. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    I agree. That's why WFTF Marshals are trained and there are processes in place to try and reduce them.

    I suspect more emphasis will be placed on future worlds to ensure hosts understand the issues they could face if they don't follow the advice in the course building documents that are available for them.

    That said, stepping up to have some sort of vetting and control by WFTF is a big task. Essentially it comes down to cost, and the time available for the volunteers in oversight.
     
  13. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    The problem arose when it was the WFTF worlds and it was 25ish calls which added significant time to the session time. But apart from that, I don't have a problem with calls or the calls mentality in the shoots I shoot.
     
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  14. skires

    skires Well-Known Member

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    Sorry Rob ...

    I understand it was the Worlds ( suspected poor target quality ).

    I edited my post above and added a bit about the Worlds ( probably whilst you were typing ) ...

    "World's ... Use decent quality targets and check that they are secured properly. Maximise efficiency of checkers. I'd try and collect data for number of calls Vs call result ( fail to fall, non fail to fall, upheld, rejected ) for a year or two ... and if the chancers are in abundance then have a meeting to discuss whether a penalty for false fail to fall calls is warranted."

    It's the only sensible and diplomatic way of doing it. As enjoyable as internet threads can be ( to the bored and lonely ) ... they are just internet threads participated by just a few. I know it's more work to collect the data ... but if it's 25 calls in a World's then ask the Marshalls to try and jot down each time what the call was for and what the result was. You then have hard evidence to push for a rule change, regarding quality of targets or penalty points, or not. At the moment it's ... I said ... he said.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2018
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  15. Ash Bailey

    Ash Bailey Would-be HFT shooter.

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    UKAHFT marshalls have a little black book,

    Target number, who called it, why and the outcome.

    Sometimes the line reads:
    • 21 - Ash Bailey - broken string - fixed.
    Other times it reads something like:
    • 21 - Mike Oxbiggar - CLOT or LOT
    CLOT or LOT indicates that the person called the target with the plaintive words "I hit that smack in the middle of the paddle, and it didn't go down". A diva moment, a splitter in most cases, or just a chancer.

    For those who don't know, CLOT - "Complete lack of talent"; LOT - Lack of Talent.

    The book also contains details of people appealing that a target was too close, too far, to small, too big, too metal, too shiny, too far up a tree, not as good as mummy's cooking...

    The names of the "Divas" are widely known, I assure you o_O
     
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  16. Yorkshiretea

    Yorkshiretea B Grade Bandit

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    Most calls I’ve witnessed was 41, I also witnessed Wreckers boots in the car park, what a day that was. Crap targets, fixings and terrible string.
     
  17. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    I thought CLOT was Calls Lots Of Targets
     
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  18. Ash Bailey

    Ash Bailey Would-be HFT shooter.

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    No mate, the code for the Divas is

    OFHWGA, an ancient Breton word pronounced "Offgwah".

    It means - "Oh Dear - here we go again....!" o_O
     
  19. Bellerophon

    Bellerophon Active Member

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    There is a rule book well guidance notes. The thing is in my opinion the addition of more and more rules etc. Just sort of starts detracting from the nature of the sport.
     
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  20. Darron

    Darron Dwarf Slayer

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    Darts? When have you ever seen a game of darts where your opponent leaves his darts in the board while you have your go?
     

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