Steyr - Regulator's Internals and other...

Discussion in 'Hunter (HFT) & Field Target (FT)' started by azuaro, Sep 9, 2019.

  1. azuaro

    azuaro Senior Member

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    Hello Members:

    I am rebuilding a LG-110 Regulator...The bottom ring grove of the piston broke and I needed machined one out of Titanium and made another one in Stainless...Steyr has no distributors for airguns in the US (very unfortunately) and getting parts for these guns is nearly impossible...I will try both pistons to see which one works the best in high-low temps..The TI one should have a slightly advantage in recovering though...

    The problem I have is that I don't have the exact O Ring sizes for the 3 O-Rings, I have:
    1.5 x 1 , 1.5 x 3 and 8.92 x 1.83 all in Viton 75 but I am not sure if these are the correct sizes...
    Will someone please confirm or provide me the right sizes?

    Then comes the piston seal...It is made out of Delrin and it works OK but it tends to creep...I wonder if someone in the forum has used any other material like HIGH POLISHED BRASS or ???

    Why is it that FT shooters generally use 85 BAR (12 ft./lb) when this power can be achieved with much lower pressure levels (70-75 BAR) ...Any particular reason?

    Best regards,

    AZ
     
  2. sstyle

    sstyle Dmitry Morozov

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  3. azuaro

    azuaro Senior Member

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    Very illustrating...Thank you Dmitry!...Good work and good thread Rob!

    Finding the regulator internal parts via the diagrams was impossible but I found out that ALL PARTS starting with number 4002090....are for the regulator ..All you then need to know is the name of the part and those are listed alphabetically. Having said this, then the O ring sizes listed above in my initial post are correct (3 only O rings listed under O Rings with starting numbers 4002090...)

    Now I only need to find out if someone has used or is using a high polished brass or equivalent metal replacing the Delrin seal and will like to hear a logical response to the last question I asked:
    "Why is it that FT shooters generally use 85 BAR (12 ft./lb) when this power can be achieved with much lower pressure levels (70-75 BAR) "

    How many good shots are people getting with regulators set at 85 BAR filling the cylinders at 200 BAR?

    Regards,

    AZ
     
  4. sstyle

    sstyle Dmitry Morozov

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    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  5. hmangphilly

    hmangphilly Can't Re Member

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    Pay attention to the flatness , squareness and finish of the delrin and mating surface chum .

    Delrin /acetal works just fine .

    get yourself some magnification to check the finish . It takes some practice
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
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  6. azuaro

    azuaro Senior Member

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    I replaced the Delrin, put new washers and all Three O Rings and used the Titanium piston I machined...Polished the Delrin face using my lathe and 2000 grit wet sand paper over a flat bar and this gave the Delrin a nice surface finish...Assembled it back and set it at 85 BAR and the recovery is almost instantaneous (less than a second), I left it 24 HRS pressurized and doesn't creep, it actually went down .02 BAR most likely because of room temperature...

    The only thing I haven't resolved is at what BAR to leave the reg for 12 ft./lb...
    I've read that 85 BAR is "Optimal and more efficient" but I will like to know WHY it is optimal and more efficient...Let me explain:
    I tried 75 BAR and even 70 BAR and the gun can shoot 860 ft./sec. with 8.4's (need 800 for 12 ft./lb.)
    At 70 BAR I get 95 shots from the standard Steyr cylinder filled to 200 BAR and 850 ft. velocity (6-7% above 12 ft./lb.)...At 75 BAR the velocity increases to 860-870 and I get 90 shots....At 85 BAR I get 890-900 ft./sec. and the shot count stays in between 85 and 90 shots...

    Now, when the gun goes off the reg set at 70 and 75 BAR, the velocity stays constant (as regulated) and after 4-5 shots it starts to drop...At 85 BAR once it is off the reg. the velocity INCREASES a little and after 3-4 shots it starts to come down...So I am confused about reading that 85 BAR is "Optimal" and "More Efficient or Stable"...Who and how did they reach this conclusion?
    To me 70 BAR is the more efficient setting because I get the most shots, I get 5-6% more than necessary velocity and VERY IMPORTANT, the velocity stays constant for a few shots when the gun goes off the regulator

    Will somebody please chime in and illustrate me about why should one use 85 BAR?

    Best regards,

    AZ
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  7. hmangphilly

    hmangphilly Can't Re Member

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    AZ
    I expect no one knows exactly why 85 is regarded as the golden number .

    I am guessing that it is the figure that has been found to work for most people most of the time . There will not be an optimum , one size fits all, pressure as there is / are such a great number of variables in the configuration of steyr rifles ........... ( we are talking power output , not chassis )

    At least 3 different 'standard ' barrels ( Barley twist , Lw 450 , Lw 550 , with many having been replaced by custom units .
    3 or 4 ( at last count ) hammers ( different styles and weights )
    At least 3 types of inlet valve ( dimensions are pretty similar , but certainly different seals ) . Not including the old style block. ( now discontinued )
    3 or 4 ? transfer port sizes
    probably other stuff that I've forgetten

    Add to that a squillion different pellet types and sizes and weights and the permutations for perfection are myriad

    We had a muck about with reg pressures a while ago . with different regs set at different pressures (THIS IS IMPORTANT ) .
    We found something very interesting , this has also been referred to in another thread about a variable external reg , ..........

    Get this , it's odd but true , 770 fps @ 70 bar gave different poi and grouping to say 770 fps @ 85 bar .

    I guess, over the years , 85 ish is the general pressure the factory ,and many individual shooters have experimented with alternative outputs and 85 bar +/- a bit seems to be the place for most .

    You now know the work involved to get the reg not to creep and to return quickly.
    It's interesting that you have tried different pressure settings , and i hope you did that before the final reg build .
    Altering the adjuster will ( IME ) always create creep , even if returned to the original setting .

    The Variable external reg is a great way to optimise a setting for a particular gun , without a very laborious process. I have to rebuild a reg for every adjustment , I've found a quick way but it's still a long drag.



    How is your Power spread at the various reg pressures AZ ?

    How much have you needed to adjust the hammer spring ?

    Most important, How is the accuracy ? Does your poi alter with different reg out put pressures |?

    Do you take tha same amount of wind at reg different outpts.


    Pardon me if i come across as condescending , I don't mean to , but not clever enough not to .
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  8. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    Different reg pressures feel better. When you tune you aren’t going just by numbers; it’s about what the shooter wants.
     
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  9. DYNO DAVE

    DYNO DAVE Senior Member

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    I set them around 88-92 bar depending on the barrel length , it makes them sharp and nice to shoot , and around 120 shots from 200 bar.
    regards Dave
     
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  10. mike

    mike Active Member

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    Phill, think you also forgot to add about the seating of the pellet in to the barrel, and how that can (and dose) effect the power.

    As you know from the work on my Steyr, just by pushing in the pellet by 1mm the fps increased too, so working on the reg alone would be only part of the solutions to obtaining the most efficient set-up.

    Personally and In my own opinion and experience of shooting a Steyr for the last 4yrs (almost every weekend and twice a week through the summer) is to leave well alone (if it ain't broke don't fix it) with a general service every now and then, the only work that needed doing to my Steyr was the lead-in to the barrel (thanks to Phill and his excellent work) the rifle shoots spot-on.

    Couldn't tell you what pressure the reg is set at (don't care) and what the maximum number of shots per fill are, as I shoot HFT and there is more than enough in a fill for that.

    Of all the rifles at my club, the one rifle that is consistently reliable is the Steyr, one member had his for 13yrs before the reg finally gave up.

    Maybe (IMHO) AZ, you are trying to just over complicate (or over think) something that really dosn't need to be, just set the reg and rifle up to what you feel is right and get out and enjoy your shooting.

    ATB
    Mike
     
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  11. Dale

    Dale Active Member

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    I have a feeling that overthinking happens a lot in this game rather than just getting on with learning how to shoot under all circumstances.
     
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  12. Pepone

    Pepone WFTF World Champion 2010

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    These configurations are not the same because the power output is not the same. If you use the hammer to get the same output velocity, you could compare each other. The last config, you have too much hammer tension for this pressure, if you put less hammer force you will flatten the curve you have when the the reg is off.
    You could compare the different setting, adjusting the power and shooting the gun. Not always you could prefer the optimal or more eficient setting, because the feeling of the gun when shooting its very important too.
     
  13. azuaro

    azuaro Senior Member

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    Yes, the power output is the same for all tried settings: 800 fps. using 8.4 gr. Jsb's...I am just varying the reg pressure in an effort to find the most precision and shot count...The gun doesn't feel different between 70 to 85 BAR but it does at the original 115 BAR setting...

    I did the testing for all different pressures before rebuilding the regulator I will be using, I am currently testing with my spare reg. which will be fully rebuilt after I am done with testing...

    It is not that I am trying to complicate things, what happens is that the rifle was a 24 Joule gun and I am switching it to 16 to shoot in the international class (as it is called here in the US)...
    I am using the Black transfer port and the spring that came with the gun, the spring is a little stronger compared to the 16 J spring...This 24 J spring has a long range: It can go from low 400's to a tad over 900 fps (Reg at 85 BAR). which occurs at about 80-85% of compression which is the optimal for consistency of any spring; more compression doesn't increase velocity and just consumes more air, so I backed it out until the velocity started to drop which is the most efficient setting for gun and spring and this happens as said, at around 80-85% compression. I machined a probe-pin for the bolt many years ago and the pellet is always seated at the very same position...The stabilizer is at the factory's recommendation ("Flush")

    The gun is very consistent at all reg settings...Originally as it came from the factory at 115 BAR it was very precise and now that I lowered the regulator setting the precision hasn't changed, I am shooting from a bench at 50 Meters and get consistent groups not higher than .400" which is extraordinary for .177 at 800 fps...The velocity spread seems not to vary much, it stays at around 3-5 fps. and never above 1% of the velocity at any reg pressure.
    I re-barreled this gun with a 22 inch Shilen custom made barrel that is not pellet fussy...The original barrel shot at much lesser velocities and was a little pellet fussy. This new barrel shots any head size and any weight from 7.9 to 10.3 grains the same...I don't need to air gauge or measure heads, weighing is all that is required with this barrel.

    The reason I started the thread is because if you ask me I would use 70 BAR since the precision of the gun and the spread in velocities are the same from 70 to 85 BAR but at 70 BAR the curve flattens the most I get a few extra shots at the same regulated velocity after the gun goes off the regulator...At 85 BAR the velocity raises after it is off the regulator.
    The shot count is not an issue, I get from 85-90+ shots no matter reg setting...Having said this, I ask "Why 85 BAR for FT" because it seems to be the case that I may be the only person believing that 70 BAR is the optimal for my gun and I wonder if I am missing something...Shooters in the UK are the GURUS of FT and there has to be a specific reason for that magic 85 number.



    Regards,

    AZ
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  14. Conor

    Conor Never been banned from sales Staff Member

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    I think the slightly higher pressure of 80-85bar is more temperature stable and consistent.
    If you are happy with the 70 bar reg setting then use that and try it out over a full charge in various temperatures checking grouping at 55yrds. If you’re happy then stick with it.
     
  15. what barn door

    what barn door Now them tin chickens are going to get it....

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    I think that the action of the hammer opening the valve is less critical at the 80 to 90 bar setting, if you go lower the return (closing) may not be so crisp, a lot higher and inconsistent opening of the valve is more likely (I think).
     

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