Discussion in 'Piston & Spring' started by whytefang, Nov 19, 2017.
Anyone converted there springers to 22mm pistion? and cons ans pros
Brian Samson running one, seems happy with his.
That's good .
Are they starting to last a bit longer now.
I saw a post by Nick G that he has done some refinement to a 21 mm and seems to like it .
I tried one a couple of years ago and it was amazingly good!
Until..... something broke
Since then I've been trying to find a 21/22 tune that lasted more than a few tins of pellets and I've had lots of failed experiments and early trips home from competitions with snapped bits.
Tony Leech challenged me to try to break one of his 22mm tunes and that's what I've been doing for the past few months.
So far I've put 5,500 pellets through a 22mm skirtless piston tune of Tony's and it's held together fine.
So it's looking promising...
Before you get too excited though... you should ask yourself, what you're expecting from a 22mm tune? If you're expecting to buy points or you're expecting to make a springer shoot like a PCP, I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed. Nothing is going to do that.
A little update , I have tried all sorts of tune now including the 22mm skirtless with a standard tx spring, personally I am not keen on the cycle , not sure what it is but I prefer using more spring room which is why I have stayed with the full piston up till now , to this end I am trying to make the spring last in my 21mm set up , I havent' had a spring break yet but I know others have .
I have altered the comp tube end cap to give me a very short port ,and gone very lightweight on the piston .This has enabled me to reduce the stroke which is now in the region of 81mm, I am still making 11fpe , but I can now use a full length No11 or 12 with in the case of the No 11 20mm of pre load this I hope will stop the spring jumping about on the guide which is i think why the spring is breaking.Its also made the recoil softer and the sight picture moves less than before .
I had a few shots with Brian's 22mm TX. It was very, very nice. Not "changing the laws of physics nice" or "shooting like a PCP nice"; it was "well tuned springer nice". To be fair probably top end of well tuned springers.
I'd love one myself but as with Brian, reliability is my top criterion for my comp springer. My 97K is standard internally apart from a V-mach kit (the cooking stage 1, not V-glide) I put in 2009. I never even needed to take it apart until 2014. And then I only changed the piston seal for a HW one. So I've had the internals out once in 8 years and it's still on the same V-mach spring.
Never tried one myself but as an engineering exercise I think they are a great idea. To use in competition I would be too worried about having an issue half way through a comp and going home early.
What might be an interesting test:
Take a 21/22mm in standard stock and a standard gun with added mass to the stock.
How much mass needs to be added to a standard gun to make it shoot the same as the 21/22mm tune?
dunno but here's the muzzle brake
... and there it is ... right there.
Nice. That will go great on my TX with the hamster I've just had commissioned
I also have a tony leach 22mm skirtless piston running with a oring on piston and its had near on 10000 pellets through it now and shoots great and like said above will never shoot like a pcp but alot nicer than a standard tx200
Hi Guys, having seen the inside of a friends TX that runs a Tony Leech piston on saturday and felt it after we fixed it together as he was running rather hot and did the bottom lip quiver walk off from the chrono. I am now sold that I want to get myself one asap. How can I contact Tony Leech to find out what he needs from me and how much to send him cos I would have one today if they are available. I have a mk 2 piston in a mk3 full length but it deserves the full monty as I love the simplicity of the tx after battling with my 97 for so long., the worst thing I ever did was to buy a laminate target stock. so i am also after a standard beech stock for my 97, beat up condition is fine cos I am going to upcycle to what I know works.
I would question why it was running hot. Is the power on these 22mm tunes likely to change without warning? Can't believe he went to the comp knowing it was running high...
There's a TX200 with Tony Leach 22mm conversion at Nelson that has gone wrong, I was told the piston has stuck in the comp tube but I haven't seen the owner to confirm.
It's just physics. Narrow bore tunes like 21/22 mm are more stressed than standard actions. Compression is higher hence higher temperatures on the seal. The springs are often stressed more than those for standard tunes. O-ring conversions seem to have reliability issues; from what I read for example with the lip on the piston head in front of the o-ring deforming.
Nothing against Tony's tunes; they're among the best out there, but it's a little like cars: if you have a highly tuned race engine you can't expect the same levels of reliability as a standard engine. If you're running a super-tune on a comp gun, make sure you have spare springs and seals and are able to swap them out when necessary.
I thought in hot weather the power of a springer drops due to expansion and not getting the same compression seal?
In cold it’s opposite?
When the seals expand they produce friction
To much lube it seems
I never back away from a swelled picton, easy sorted and ONLY the early bronze nose ones might do it, the ones with a seal will never do it...all it needs is to come back to me
Wrong way round Adam, smaller piston are less stressed, they run super high efficiency so the springs have far less input energy, the issue is because of this they run very low friction set up by default and temperature has become an issue for some...
Moving on with development due to temperature issues etc. Tried a few things, all shared on Lost Volume, 1st dry lube, works well, near zero detonation from the get go.
2nd, reduced seal sealing lip to near bang on 22mm, this seal will fail in the cold, the thinking is the seal swells in the heat and starts to seal just fine, then right behind the seal run a low friction O ring, so when the seal fails (in the cold) it just acts like a buffer.
Tested this hot and right out the freezer, velocity did alter slightly BUT nothing failed, i think its about as good as I can come up with...think along the lines of a dual seal all on one piston.
Please lads, i don't mind you chatting about things that go wrong but i like to help out, please forward issues to me on my FB group, that way at least i have a chance of helping if i can.
Dan you set them up like any piston and seal, they don't wildly change when set up rigght, the issues are the same for 25 or 26mm or any piston running a polyurethane seal up front, the seal expands at a totally different rate to the steel around it, when warm they can expand and create added friction so velocity comes down, then mid temperature they seal perfectly and when cold the material can shrink and in some cases with over large seals the velocity goes UP and the seal is now sized in better or the seal goes undersize and the velocity can drop. A mate of mine has been struggling with an LGU seal, big temperature velocity swings...its just the nature of poly seals.
I tested moly filled as well as standard Poly, it all does it.
This is why i decided to at least give a dual seal a go, so the front seal is acting more like a buffer with the O ring behind it as a back up.
Also, i dry fired my TX rifle 10+ times with a seal up front to see if the steel piston noses would swell and cause an issue...the piston nose was just fine, the seal had sustained some damage though...but thats a good thing.