Scope height?

Discussion in 'Hunter (HFT) & Field Target (FT)' started by luddite, Dec 11, 2013.

  1. luddite

    luddite I Love HFT

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    Most FT shooters have their scopes set high above the barrel for comfort and to flatten the trajectory at longer ranges.

    What sort of heights do you guys think is best?

    I have a deep hamster and a high set scope and find this suits me.

    I own a few different guns and set then all at 8.5 inches between the bottom of the hamster and the centre line of the scope.

    I recently fitted a Warren Edwards hamster to a Steyr and the fixed posts gave me 9 inches, enough to upset my shooting.

    I cut the half inch off over the weekend and now my rig is stable again. :)
     
  2. holly

    holly Well-Known Member

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    Best

    The best compromise i have found is three and a half inches , line of flight to line of sight . once you start going above that with a eighths click scope , dialling becomes a problem . i have gone up to 6 inches above . but i started hitting the ground on some lanes . on my steyr which shoots very flat , with a quarter click lupe on top . i am four and a half inches up . ??? HOLLY:)
     
  3. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    I only put the scope where my head is comfortable. That's purely what drives it. The click or so per 5 yds I save is really immaterial to it as being the driving factor.

    I start with a rig setup around the sitting position. I start by getting the gun as low down as possible, so i'm not using a hamster which jacks the centre of gravity up. I then remove the cheekpiece entirely, then place it where my head wants it to be. Once there, I then stick the scope where my eye wants it to be. Only then once comfortable do I play with hamsters. Much easier to do on an alutec style stock.

    The main dimension of interest is the distance from the bottom of the stock where it sits on knee/hand, to the scope's bore... that is what you're looking for. Whether you jack the barrel/action up to the scope with a deep hamster or use a high riser is up to you. But around 3-4 inches you start to run into issues like scope travel, and also standing becomes more problematic, as in reality you want less distance between your support point and the scope for standing... so you can get your arm vertical and the weight carried down through it's bone, not using muscle to lift or hold the rifle up.

    Granted I'm not using the stock I should be... i've been procrastinating a new stock for years now... but i've done this with other shooters who seem to find it more comfortable.

    With FT though there is a compromise. Sitting is 80% of all shots. But it depends if you want to chuck your strengths into that, or slightly weaken that setup to be stronger for a weaker position like kneeling or standing.

    You'll see from the 3p boys there is a considerable amount of difference in the stock shapes between the one end of the spectrum, standing, and the other, sitting... sitting tends to be deep distance between scope and hamster, long butt... standing, short butt, shallow distance. Kneeling somewhere in between. The 3p boys have different hooks, cheeks, fore-ends for each position, all set up ready to go... but they are shooting at fixed distances at fixed heights. With FT we need to be more adaptable.

    Also weight plays a part. A good place to start is having the CofG over the support point. With sitting that's further forward on the rifle than standing... not to be confused with where people end up supporting the rifle in standing, because you naturally move to support the CofG, not change the rifle to where it should be supported. With standing, the CofG is more commonly much further back.

    As with everything, the more you pursue perfection, the more it needs to be tailored to the individual circumstance.

    One thing I would say is having good core strength and the ability to get your knee closer to your chest, and stable, is quite key... although there are several large shooters who buck the trend, there's a common theme with most of the top shots. I don't know how the large lads do it. I put 1.5 stone on and really started to struggle... and I know those with hip or back issues who can't fold themselves up so well tend to end up with large distances from hamster to scope bore.
     
  4. holly

    holly Well-Known Member

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    interesting

    interesting rob . but not i think correct . adjustable everything can be a curse , as well as a favour . you will know i shoot a bull pup . no adjustable cheek piece . the forend slides back and forth . but that is it . now i used to shoot it off the knee which meant the cheek piece was where it was intended to be , on the cheek . as i have aged ( 21 ) stability is a problem . so to counteract that , i have to lower the rifle down to below the knee and try to lock it up with the leading hand . this means that the cheek is no longer on the cheek piece . not easy shooting wise , but it can be done . having said that , the standers and kneelers are spot on head wise . head straight up and air way clear . cheek on the cheek piece . so to me adaptability is more important than adjustability . if you start moving things around as you shoot the course . you miss , you blame the movement of whatever it was you moved . i know cos i have done it . oh sod it , i should have done this , instead of that . i lock every thing up and get on with it . not for every one . but it works for me . ??? HOLLY:)
     
  5. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    That's why I check natural point of aim before putting eye to scope... ;)
     
  6. holly

    holly Well-Known Member

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    Ahh

    Ahh but where is your NPA . i have never agreed with the technique of letting the POA be above the target with a full breath and then half exhale , to drop down onto the target . i put the NPA down left of the target , check the wind . pick my point of aim . then half inhale to the POA . in or around the kill . the half exhale from a complete breath , always seems to take to long and the bloody wind changes ??? HOLLY:D:eek:
     
  7. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    Why does it need to be above? Who says it does? Standing it's accepted to come in from above. But for other positions not so... many come from the below because as the body relaxes and falls on to bone structure it comes down and the muzzle comes up. So you come from below.

    Why use muscle holding a breath in, when you can shoot lungs relaxed exhale and use the natural pause the body takes before CO2 % rises and initiates the desire to take a breath. Using lungs to inflate to get you on target is a technique, but it's a kludge, but why use muscle and energy when you don't need to?

    [​IMG]

    Look at the graph hols... tell me is it better to take a shot at the top when the lungs move from inhale to exhale without stopping or which require muscle and effort to stop, or at the bottom where they naturally stop, where they use no muscle, and where the pause can be extended without effort? ;)

    Debatable if there's any difference in the time the wind gives you between the two, it doesn't know if you're puffing or panting :D, but your breath cycle gives you a better chance at the bottom i would suggest.

    The rifle should sit where you want it. Breathing should disturb that, but it should go back to your NPA. Not the other way around. If you're putting it somewhere else, your NPA isn't on target. It should be. So you're body is pointing in the wrong place.

    Sights aren't to get you onto the target.

    Sights are to confirm you are on target. If you're not, you break and move.

    It's all about position... all of it... 90% of what goes wrong afterwards is to do with position. You can't confirm aim without your position being right, you can release a shot if you're aim isn't good or position is stable, and you can forget follow through if the previous two aren't right.
     
  8. holly

    holly Well-Known Member

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    In doors

    Indoors rob i would agree with you , indoors you could use a graph possibly to explain the technique you are using . BUT we are outdoors . wind is our main enemy .by the way the above hold was taught before you were born . so it just maybe out of date . now you can breath in and out to your blue in the face . but if the wind is right when you are not in the right position to shoot , then you have to start again . time is ticking away and the old oh my gord i am gonna run out of time , starts to kick in . if your natural alignment is below and left of the target ( depending on your assement of the wind direction and strength ) as you breath in the rifle rises high right to your assessed point of aim . wind check , windicator . or visual depending on the conditions . IE wind affect strongest at the target or wind at the barrel . steady . gone . no up down shoot . just smoothly to the target , check shoot . if you are the more steady shooter like possibly your self and woody . then what you are putting forward may well be the best way for you . but if you are a nervous shooter like my self . this works well .??? HOLLY

    PS on the subject of windage the one that catches a lot of shooters out is the light continuess breeze . it happens a lot at carisbrooke . big field to the right . wind comes across like somebody breathing on your cheek . yeah no sweat . 50 yards , inside right or maybe a split . steady .off she goes , DONK . that light little breeze just keeps pushing the pellet all the way out . ??? HOLLY:)
     

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