Position Question - Inclination Shots

Discussion in 'Hunter (HFT) & Field Target (FT)' started by Thepointman, Aug 20, 2013.

  1. Thepointman

    Thepointman Member

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    I ran across the picture below from a recent match. *My question is this: *Is this a legal position under the World Core Rules using the bum bag to support the back.*

    Rule 1.6 "
    Seating. The maximum height for any form of seating is 150 mm (6”) when flattened between 2 boards. The seat may only be used as an aid in sitting or kneeling shots."*

    If it is legal I would consider using it if we encounter extremely high shots in Ebern. However, if it is not legal, I want to know and think others should be advised accordingly.

    Also note that I'm not trying to bash the shooter taking this shot. This may well be legal under her home country rules. I just want clarification using World Core Rules.

    Thanks in advance!

    Harold


    <a href="http://s1367.photobucket.com/albums/r783/LRG-Files/?action=view&current=D565EA9C-0AC0-4A47-92EE-35BE35698FB3-4792-00000288F9BAC248_zpsfca13674.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1367.photobucket.com/albums/r783/LRG-Files/D565EA9C-0AC0-4A47-92EE-35BE35698FB3-4792-00000288F9BAC248_zpsfca13674.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos" /></a>
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2013
  2. Delphinus

    Delphinus New Member

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    The shooter is Kristin Antsmäe, I had the privilege to shoot with her this weekend and she's a top shooter.
    There is a German rule that invalidates that shot, is a stupid and a grey one because of the exceptions, her foot is over the firing line so it s illegal.

    e. The feet of the shooter may not touch the ground mark of
    the firing line. The muzzle, however, must be in target direction in front of it. There are some
    lanes where this is impossible and such cases are treated as exceptions. In such cases the muzzle
    must be in front of the ground marking and the trigger behind it.
     
  3. Delphinus

    Delphinus New Member

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    Rob please delete this one it was a copy of the first post
     
  4. Thepointman

    Thepointman Member

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    Yes, I agree with you. That rule may be impossible to comply with. My barrel is shorter than my legs and foot, so getting it past my foot while keeping my foot behind the line is not practical.

    My concern with the position in the photo us the use of the bum bag to support the back, not the knee or butt. Since that isn't a seated shot or a kneeling shot, it could be argued that it's an illegal position and use of the bum bag. At least I've heard the argument here in the USA. If anyone has experience with this issue on your side of the pond, please let me know.

    See you soon!

    Harold
     
  5. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    Ive shot like that, but i dont think i used the bag...
     
  6. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    I'd say its legal as there's nothing defining a sitting shot in position terms... how far back or forward you lean is up to you...

    Agreed about the foot over line rule in Germany, the EFTA have objected and we're hoping it can be resolved before the event starts. It would be good if other member countries made their opinions known.
     
  7. neilL

    neilL New Member

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    I would guess there is nothing to stop someone carrying a short roll of high density foam (like camping mats) to either sit on or lay down on (prone is a valid position but I doubt it is defined as having to be on your front - just no part of rifle to touch the ground - how is it defined in DE?).

    The no-foot-across-the-line rule may cause problems for some as that was changed in the UK some years back to barrel in front + trigger behind ??

    Cheers
    Neil
     
  8. Conor

    Conor Never been banned from sales Staff Member

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    The lady is not contravening any rule, he feet are clearly not touching the firing line, they are well forward of it which I intend to do in Germany. I will ensure my feet do not touch the firing line!;) If the Germans want to be picky about the wording of specific rules and ignore them then I can be picky too and ignore theirs! Also they say it isn't possible for some lanes so for me its either a rule or not!

    I have also been told that the angles are not extreme and that a range safety officer will have to pass all targets before the competition. That particular angle of shot is unsafe, shooters should not have to adopt unsafe, unstable positions to take a shot that is alien to them.

    I believe that if you are going to lie down the butt hook may not touch the ground as then you would be using the terrain to support the gun and not the actual body.
     
  9. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    Yeh, the BFTA adopted the existing WFTF rule...;):eek:o
     
  10. AIRFIX GILLY

    AIRFIX GILLY WFTA World Champion 2012

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    Italy Worlds

    We had two shots that had to be taken like the pic in Italy Worlds.

    They were pointless and dangerous targets in my opinion.

    Maybe someone has pics of shooters taking them?

    No one objected to lying on your back though.

    I missed both!:eek:o

    Gilly.
     
  11. Delphinus

    Delphinus New Member

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    Your reading of the rule is correct but we all know that the last word bellongs to the organization.
     
  12. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    I hit one. With a springer. But I fear I just peaked on that shot, cos I missed the next one. And quite a few after that. And a few more over the next two days. But I hit that one. With a springer :p
     
  13. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    I'm not sure there's anything in the WFTF rules about that. Don't know about the BDS rules though...
     
  14. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    Spoke to Andy Kays on the phone and he doesn't see a problem with my description of the above including bag under the shoulders. So guess its down to the bds.
     
  15. NZSteyr

    NZSteyr Steyr LG110 + Falcon T50

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    The very definition of prone is "on your front" I think... on your back is supine :)
     
  16. neilL

    neilL New Member

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    True. But what we refer to as sitting is actually freestyle and only prone, kneel and stand are defined (other than using harnesses, etc) so I guess it is ok. Maybe those steep declines are easier in a prone position - at least you can't shoot yourself in the foot doing prone :)

    Some people use the bag for standing when there is a slope, just to help make the stance level? Is that in the rules?

    I wish I was going to observe the Worlds :)

    Cheers
    Neil
     
  17. TOOL

    TOOL Independent FT Pumper

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    So as we are all technically are own safety officers on the course then I for one will not shoot a target that I feel is unsafe that may cause me or others harm regardless of some assumption of a non shooting marshal.
    If the marshal will not address the issue I will ask the shoot to be stopped and my EFTA Official to lodge a complaint.


    Based on the picture posted by Harold , that is ridiculous , hardly a test of anything is it ? Other than a Norman Wisdom balancing competition.

    The two targets in Italy were stupid not a test of skill at all , I hit first missed 2nd, total b0llocks
     
  18. Conor

    Conor Never been banned from sales Staff Member

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    Hi Neil,

    Bag only allowed to be used in sitting and kneeling shots, stated in rules.
     
  19. Conor

    Conor Never been banned from sales Staff Member

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    Major problem Scotty boy, RobF your WFTF rep may well be 2.5km away at the far end of a totally different course on a separate part of the range..... did someone mention WFTF core rules???
     
  20. dutoitk

    dutoitk Member

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    Here are 2 pic's of the Italy angled shots.

    Dont have any of the extreme one where you had to lie on your back.
     

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