POI change when kneeling

Discussion in 'Hunter (HFT) & Field Target (FT)' started by Pauly5, May 6, 2019.

  1. Pauly5

    Pauly5 Member

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    I am after a bit of advice here. I have found that I shoot low when kneeling. For example at 30 m sitting my poi is bang on, then kneel for the same shot, with same turret settings and poi about 20 mm low.
    I haven't had this before. I have tweaked my stance a little of late and am guessing its all to do with my head position. Scope is a Leupold comp 45 x 45 on a HW97.
    Thanks,
    Paul.
     
  2. C.Eaton

    C.Eaton Confirmed Anschutz Nut...

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    Probably a bit of change of grip as well. Do you hold the rifle at the same place for both sitting and kneeling?
    Bet bet is just to aim at 12 o clock for kneelers...;)
     
  3. miketowler

    miketowler Active Member

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    That’s a springer, u must hold the gun same for all shots
     
  4. Cooper_dan

    Cooper_dan Well-Known Member

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    I shoot HFT not FT but get a similar thing. Going from prone to kneeling its almost impossible to hold the gun in the same way. A natural kneeling position for me puts the POI much higher for kneelers.
    What I've done is move my hands around and played with different positions until the POI matches prone.
    I would say its 99% going to be your hold and not the scope.
     
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  5. Pauly5

    Pauly5 Member

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    I'm starting to think it's the hold. Ive shot springers for a while now, but due to more practice and change of technique I have become more accurate with my positionals and probably just didn't notice that poi shift before. I will play around with the grip. I know I brace the gun back against my shoulder when kneeling, but sitting, the gun sits in a balanced position.
    Thanks.
     
  6. chrisc

    chrisc Lucky git

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    i find my POI is approx 15mm higher at 35 yards when kneeling compared to prone. I suspect it's down to head position/cheek weld. IIRC correctly i didn't notice this problem when shooting FT so the difference from sitting to kneeling may not have the same effect as prone to kneeling. I would say it's a hold issue.
     
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  7. Nomads HFT

    Nomads HFT Well-Known Member

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    As the rifle recoils, it wants to turn about its centre of gravity, which is below the axis of the piston, so the muzzle tends to rise, the butt to fall, in both cases, by a tiny amount, but enough to move POI.

    By bracing the butt against your shoulder when kneeling, you restrict the recoil and hence the amount by which the muzzle rises (lowering POI); moreover, the muscle of your shoulder stores potential energy as the butt pushes against it during recoil, which is returned as kinetic (moving) energy after the recoil has reversed to forward surge. It is during surge, when the butt wants to rise, the muzzle fall, that the pellet exits the muzzle.

    The best workaround if you can is to relax your shoulder muscles, so they offer less resistance to the recoil, and store lese energy to add to surge.
     
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  8. Cooper_dan

    Cooper_dan Well-Known Member

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    Jim - nail - head

    On my butt pad I use self adhesive skateboard tape to make it extra grippy. That way I never need to brace the butt in my shoulder as the tape takes care of any potential slippage
     
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  9. Nomads HFT

    Nomads HFT Well-Known Member

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    I like the deeply concave Bisley adjustable recoil pad, which locates on the shoulder with no pressure, Dan.

    Here's the recoil from one of my TX200s, one shot with the rifle free to recoil, the other pressed hard against my shoulder, to exaggerate the effect on recoil.

    Recoil free and shoulder.jpg .
     
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  10. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    I don't see it, but i have quite a loose hold.
     
  11. Cooper_dan

    Cooper_dan Well-Known Member

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    Thats the butt bad that tillys put on my new stock. I'm quite hopeful it will make a difference
     
  12. Nomads HFT

    Nomads HFT Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure it will, Dan. Not only is it concave, but it's 'grippy'.
     
  13. Adam

    Adam Well-Known Member

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    The butt plate and shoulder fit is an oft-overlooked item. Flatter pads need to be pulled into the shoulder more to support the weight of the rifle, unless the front hand is at the balance point, which I’ve never found to be the most stable or accurate. So a more concave shape and grippy material, or a full hook in FT.

    I have a theory that the lower hook part of a butt hook can help here too. Yes it helps consistently locate the rifle in the shoulder but I think in some cases it also supports some of the weight in folds of jacket between torso and arm, while allowing the rifle to move back under recoil unimpeded. I think this is one reason why I always wanted to shoot springer in my ancient green anorak (as waterproof as a sieve) and didn’t like other jackets. The padding and the looseness of the fabric was part of the package.

    However I have to say switching to a Benke gimp jacket has been a revelation. I thought it would just help with disciplines but it’s reduced those wayward shots that seem to have unexpected recoil reaction. The grippiness and the consistency are key.
     
  14. tillygti6

    tillygti6 Tilly's gun stocks

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    Same here. They are the softest, grippiest, most concave butt pads out there.
    Granted they look poop until you paint the backing plates but they work very well indeed.

    Jim, have you spoken to Dan about our findings yet? And the layout of his stock?

    I've also found the angle of the buttpad, from the vertical position can have an effect on the recoil and sight picture.
     
  15. tillygti6

    tillygti6 Tilly's gun stocks

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    Sorry, should say, has Dan spoken to you about our findings?
     
  16. Nomads HFT

    Nomads HFT Well-Known Member

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    I don't recollect Dan going into detail about his stock, but I have got a mind like a colander.

    I agree about the angle of the recoil pad having an effect.
     
  17. Cooper_dan

    Cooper_dan Well-Known Member

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    I mentioned it in passing but not in detail. I'll be using it at the recoil championship so I'll tell you then. Some interesting findings though. Some possibly general for springers, some maybe specific to me. Very confident this will improve my scores/consistency
     
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  18. tillygti6

    tillygti6 Tilly's gun stocks

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    Ah so weve meandered away from the original question on the post...

    I'd expect it to be mostly hold related, it would be quite hard to induce that sort of 20mm error via head position /parallax error, without noticing the ret blacking out, or blurring.
     
  19. Pauly5

    Pauly5 Member

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    Interesting little meander away, but talk of jackets and the tactile feedback does raise another factor. I have started using a shooting jacket which has more stiffness than normal clothing. The jacket overall has helped vastly, due to the "core support" it gives me, but as Nomads described, it probably adds to the potential recoil effect with the contact point on my shoulder.
     
  20. Pauly5

    Pauly5 Member

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    Just an update on this. I upgraded to a Maestro hook. Just one link and small hook. Absoltely love it, but today while practicing I had no poi shift while kneeling. I think my problem was due to the fit of the previous hook. It was longer.
     

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