Pellet Consistency Problems

Discussion in 'General Airgun Chat' started by j.waterfield, Dec 23, 2008.

  1. j.waterfield

    j.waterfield Member

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    Has anyone else found a grouping problem with the latest Air Arms pellets ?

    I have been using Air Arms pellets (4.52) for two years with no real problems being noted, however the latest batch purchased are not grouping anywhere near as well as previous batches.

    The problem batch has label details as follows :- 260 3010 4.52 58

    I still have one tin of my previous (good) batch, label details are :- 020 1303 4.52 68

    It definintly appears to be the pellets causing the problem as during tests, switching the pellet batches causes the problem to come and go accordingly, itis most definintly not me or the gun (Steyr LG110FT) I am told by my pellet supplier that he has not had any other similar reports.

    Am I on my own here, or is there someone else with the same problem, but dosen't realise it !!

    John Waterfield
     
  2. Baltipal

    Baltipal New Member

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    Oh dear John, not again mate! I'm on Mozzies so can't help you directly. Good luck sorting it though.;)
     
  3. Gerry

    Gerry Member

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    You are right there , my new ones are rubbish !

    At least a third of each tin is junk, the skirts are deformed and mishapen.

    Watching the pellet flight is guess work , some will go straight, another will be inches off at 40 yards, for no reason, shooting off the bench.

    Sad , but thats the truth. My 10 tins are basically a waste of money, now try and find some decent JSBs ..........

    :(:(:(:(:(:(:(:eek:
     
  4. j.waterfield

    j.waterfield Member

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    Hi Jerry
    Whats the batch (label) numbers mate ?

    I am not talking about mis-shaped or damaged pellets but I am not sure at the moment just what it is that seems to be causing the problem.

    Thanks for your input, it all helps !

    John Waterfield (P.S. I can't afford Mozzies - Greg)
     
  5. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    One of my observations with the JSB offerings that the batch performance is more variable than the head size or even make of pellet... i've seen the same thing with mozzies... and we've blind tested them, and others and found that some batches of AA fields are better than mozzies, and some batches of mozzies are better than exacts, and some are better than others... no matter what the size.

    It's why i currently have to do so much sorting of pellets, yet a year ago I could shoot them without worry straight from the tin.
     
  6. Gerry

    Gerry Member

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    This batch I currently have are 020 1502 70 4.52 .

    The tins have white tape , all my previous tins and the last 20 tins of JSB have had red tape .

    ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

    :eek::eek::eek:
     
  7. Jon

    Jon Member

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    Welcome to the club Johny i had more than 4 years of the poor quality and nothing i could do about it, except support the trash. Last year AA and another eventually realised the shoddy quality and made their feelings known.
    Know all the symptoms it gave me the run around for years and cost me a fortune in time, travel, and loads of batches in every size and brand of JSB made slug to no avail, lucky to group 6" at 40 yards no joke after travelling 100's of miles. Hence total dislike for JSB.
     
  8. j.waterfield

    j.waterfield Member

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    Some interesting facts

    Since making my original post I have found out some interesting facts & information about air rifle pellet ballistics. First of all there has been little work carried out on pellet ballistics, most work has been done on bullets / shells etc.

    However there have been tests and investigations carried out on pellet ballistics (I have included a link to a web site below - the section on PELLET FLIGHT is very interesting). This seems to sugest that the "weight distribution" within the pellet is of considerable importance to the flight, and therefore the accuracy of the pellet, i.e. the center of gravity position of the pellet.
    Those of us who build and fly model aircraft (like me) understand that C of G (center of gravity - balance point) is very important to flight.

    1) If the C of G is too far "forward", flight is slugish and airplane does not want to respond to controls

    2) If the C of G is too far "back" , flight is very, very twitchy indeed, the mearest touch of the controls results in excessive reactions

    3) If the C of G is too far "to one side", flight will always want to turn to the side which has more weight (left or right)

    Sorry to go on about aeroplanes, but the same C of G principle I would think, must apply to all types of flight (aeroplanes, helecopters, pellets). It would seem to make a lot of sense to me that this may be the cause of differing results / grouping problems with pellets from various production batches, in paticular when the factory has carried out referbishment work on the tooling creating small changes in pellets.

    I have certainly noticed visual differences between pellets from different batches, as I am sure we all have from time to time.

    The pellets that I have written about in my original post, do visually have a larger (about 30% bigger) diameter flat area inside the bottom of the skirt than my previous batch. This leads me to think that the weight distribution (C of G) of these pellets is too far back (as in 2 above), I know that the pellet does not have controls, but the same unstable flight would result.

    Hope I haven't bored you to much ! heres the web link

    www.beemans.net/airgun ballistics.htm

    John Waterfield
     
  9. Jon

    Jon Member

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    Robs Mossies are like that John.
     
  10. villiers

    villiers Self appointed antipimp

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    Skirt

    In one tin of AA 4.52 have found three types of pellet base in the skirt type 1 very deep and small flat area,to type 2 to shallow and a large base type 3 pellets which had a taper and no flat area at all inside the skirt:confused:
     
  11. Gerry

    Gerry Member

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    Sadly, it looks like AA pellets quality has gone down the toilet !
    :(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(
     
  12. j.waterfield

    j.waterfield Member

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    Pellet Problems

    Crikey this seems to be fairly wide spread, and more of an ongoing problem, anybody else have any input ??

    I wonder if we may be able to get a comment or two from the manufacturer (i.e.JSB) a pellet specification (drawing etc) showing the designed C of G would be most usefull.

    John Waterfield
     
  13. Gerry

    Gerry Member

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    Looks like AA quality control has gone rubbish !:eek::confused:
     
  14. villiers

    villiers Self appointed antipimp

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    No it is not Airarms its Jsb who make the pellets, daystate dont buy from jsb any more,but until someone can make in bulk a pellet with good control we are stuck with them.:eek:.Depends on the day of the week your batch is made. Am using RWS super fields at the moment have sleeve thats pretty dam good,nice clean looking pellets weight 8.5 to 8.3grain .Dont know what to get next will see whats good when i run out.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2008
  15. Jon

    Jon Member

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    Exactly, like everything JSB and Crossman do/did, its batch dependant.
    I did find a good batch of AA last September that a well known airgun writer sent me, but will not support that company i would rather pack it in.
     
  16. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    Cant't agree more Jon. In fact, I've got a batch of mozzies that started off appailing... perhaps 25% of the tin with dinked skirts, varying from a flattened size to a tail resembling a clowns sleeve! But as I've gone through the batch they've got better and better, with hardly any discards to damage, and perhaps only 20% of the tin outside of 7.7-8.0. That said on the last tin I found one at 7.4 and another at 8.2... both looked identical.

    I think it's demand related... a quietly selling pellet seems to be ok, but put in the shadow by a good performing batch of another... word spreads, everyone buys it, demand goes up and quality seems to sag... in the meantime the old pellet is still doing it's thing and can end up better than the more popular make of the moment.

    The best pellet we had after a blind test was an AA Field from some time ago, and the 2nd one was a mozzie from some time ago...

    As far as CofG is concerned, i don't think it would have too much to do with it because the spin rate is so high... but i'm sure, like the rest of aspects to do with ammo, an ideal and constant would help... but i think measuring the C 0f G is going to take a while.:eek:
     
  17. j.waterfield

    j.waterfield Member

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    Pellet problems - More interesting news !!

    Hi All

    Since starting this thread I have had no end of F.T. shooters coming to me and discussing there pellet problems, and that the variation with different production batchs (batch to batch) is a constant source of frustration and difficaulty.

    There have been a number of E Mails between myself and Pavel Kolebac at J.S.B. concerning these problems, he has been extreamly helpful and has passed on some interesting facts, which are :-

    1) J.S.B. control the quality and cosistancy of each individual batch, with dimensional tests and grouping tests at 50 metres in there testing tunnel, the grouping specification is 12mm centre to centre, testing is carried out at the British legal limit (12 ft pounds)

    2) There is no actual comparision between production batches, as long as each batch passes the tests it is deemed as O.K. So if they drop lower, lift higher or vary from batch to batch this would not be picked up.

    It would seem that J.S.B. were not fully aware of the frustration and problems caused to F.T. shooters by batch to batch variations, however they are now !

    Pavel is now going to involve there engineers and press tooling suppliers to address the problem, he says he will keep me informed of any progress that is made.

    I am sure that if J.S.B. can solve this batch variation problem, they would become the "holy grail" pellet manufacturer. LETS HOPE THEY CAN SOLVE IT !

    John Waterfield
     
  18. KarlC

    KarlC Member

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    Pellet probems

    Cheers John,
    Interesting reading lets hope that JSB do react or they will not be popular with FT shooters ,
    Karl..
     
  19. Gerry

    Gerry Member

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    Well done John.

    Please keep us informed of the feed back .
     
  20. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    Well done. All sounds good.

    Paul at Air Ammo has had a new batch of JSB exacts in (4.52) and early reports is that all 3 batches are good...
     

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