NSRA/BFTA: Maintaining your Coaching License

Discussion in 'Hunter (HFT) & Field Target (FT)' started by RobF, Oct 24, 2011.

  1. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    The attached article is in the latest NSRA Rifleman Magazine. Dave Froggett has sent this copy for streaming to our Regions and Clubs. Please forward it to all Club reps

     
  2. Great Gran

    Great Gran New Member

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    Maintaining your Coaching license

    Please could you note that this applies to all BFTA Instructors/Coaches as the NSRA has always issued the license on our behalf.

    Beryl
     
  3. Scooby

    Scooby Pete Dutton

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    Does this mean that all BFTA Club instuctors, coaches etc need to be individual members of the NSRA & have RCO qualifications ?
     
  4. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    Yes, they need to be individual members and CRB'd.

    The RCO bit can be ignored so I will edit it out. I have just spoken to DF about this.

    I don't know the reasoning behind it, but I do know that for insurance, club insurance doesn't cover you anymore. It seemed to come out of an assessment by the insurance company as to what they were actually insuring.

    Although other schemes like NRA do recognise coaches/instructors, the NSRA membership now is part of the qualification, so if you don't have that then the chances are the NRA insurance wouldn't recognise you either. But that is speculation. I wasn't particularly impressed either when I heard it, but on the flip side, NSRA membership does get your kit insured to and from shoots, and it's 1/2 price for your first year.

    From the point of clubs I feel it's a mistake to suddenly burden individuals with a fee that once was inclusive, because it's probably the instructors that would be more likely to lose out and most likely to work with shooters ad-hoc, where as coaches tend to be more structured in their approach and could well carry the membership as a requirement to run courses for instance. So suddenly to keep say 5 instructors a club or 5 instructors needs to find a chunk of change.
     
  5. Scooby

    Scooby Pete Dutton

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    I can't see many people being willing to stump up for NSRA membership & a CRB check
     
  6. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    No Pete, nor can I. It used to be that only coaches needed a CRB, but now it's instructors as well. On the last course I ran the CRB was included, but the additional sting of the membership which I found out about days before didn't make life easier.

    It seems to be the insurance that's driving it. But without another supplier in the market, it's difficult to see what the alternatives are.

    Membership i seem to remember is 1/2 price for the 1st year, but if you need the £25 CRB as well then you are looking at a £60 chunk. Granted it gives you kit insurance as well, and even then it's damned good value for money for a two day course... but for those that just renew and perhaps don't instruct/coach a lot, it's not much incentive to keep your badge.

    I would have liked something aimed more at the club, or even the NSRA themselves. I think it's a stretch to ask what are normally volunteers to give up their time (which people don't begrudge at all) and then to ask them to pay for their cover and qualification. Coaching/instruction is largely done as a benefit to the sport, and so I think the whole sport should carry it. If coaches/instructors turn professional and charge for it, that's a different matter.

    Dave knows my feelings on the matter, as does Ali about the way the insurance works for the NSRA. I really don't think it's acceptable for the policy wording document not to be circulated when changes like this have happened and the membership (ie clubs and their members) aren't aware.

    Insurance is perhaps the one ring that binds us, and if we are the customer then we should be able to get what we want considering the numbers involved. Perhaps if there was another insurer on the scene then things may change.
     
  7. rich

    rich Active Member

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    Frankly it's a disgraceful way for the NSRA to behave.

    My club has three very active and well known shots who have taken the club instructor course and between us we teach about a dozen teenage lads every Wednesday.

    Overnight we have been stripped of our status, me because my CRB was obtained via a third party - although it was obtained specifically for me to teach young persons to shoot at my club, and ACCEPTED when I renewed my licence - and the other two instructors because they had BFTA numbers when they took the course and qualified, and a BFTA number is no longer good enough, they too have to stump up 70 quid a year for NSRA membership to carry on giving away freely their expertise.

    If I had a criminal record, it's the same record whether the organisation enquiring is the NSRA or another body, so why my CRB cannot be accepted I do not know.

    This really is a fine way to introduce new members to the sport, and I publicly call upon the NSRA to reflect that their policy is actually flawed, let alone the disgraceful fact that those who have lawfully and at their own expense achieved this qualification through BFTA are only going to find out that it has been taken away if they either read the NSRA magazine or go and look on the NSRA website, neither of which is likely to happen if they are not already NSRA members.
     
  8. rich

    rich Active Member

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    Another thing.

    I was told earlier this year by NSRA that to attend a club instructor course for Light Sporting Rifle I would need to have individual NSRA membership and an RCO qualification.

    I was told two days ago by NSRA that all club instructor courses regardless of discipline were brought into common line in 2010 after the BFTA stopped selling insurance.

    Now we hear that this isn't actually the case, you can do the FT club instructor course without needing an RCO qualification, and Rob has edited that out.

    So are they in line on a common foundation or not?


    And another thing...

    The insurance tag is a red herring. If you hold a club instructor ticket it no more makes you into an instructor for your club than holding a driving licence makes you a chauffeur. Anyone who has the CI ticket but is not appointed by their club as an instructor doesn't actually need any special insurance, thank you. The insurance is only a factor once they are appointed, so it's an issue for the club to handle, not the individual. Paid cover for activities that you don't actually indulge in is a waste of money, or a con.

    And another thing . .

    If it sounds like I am pretty darn fuming over all this, well you read it right.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2011
  9. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    Rich, the mention of the RCO ticket was a mistake when that release was issued. I am not sure if it applies to other disciplines, that point does need to be made clear.

    But I am afraid you do need insurance. If a person is deemed to be instructing/coaching someone and by that instruction suffers an injury or loss, then the club is not insured under the NSRA scheme. Only the instructor/coach is. The definition of instruction/coaching i am told is if it's an adhoc or organised and/or if it directly utilises the qualification. Ie "go and have a word with Rich and he'll help you out" is different from "go and have a word with Rich, he's a club instructor". If the club has therefore been placed as being responsible, then it could be problematic if there is a problem and there is no insurance.

    For me I don't like it because it was all covered by club insurance before, and I think the NSRA should not accept people on the courses if they aren't members. As you know, I only found out about it well after the course dates and everything was set. Something around a week or so before the course when querying the difference in pricing for the NSRA admin, which you raised as a sudden increase over what was mentioned before.

    I am hoping the certificate of competence qualifies the person without the need for membership. The insurance question still remains unfortunately.

    I have looked into the NRA cover, which says it's recognises other NGB's coaches/instructors and will insure them. However the NSRA don't deem you to be qualified as such unless you are a member.

    It's the rail roading into being an NSRA full member for the lifeftime of the qualification that I am also not happy about, and the fact that really this rather large issue seems to be news for so many people, and ultimately affects clubs' behaviour, and undoes probably a large amount of qualifications. This is not news though to the NSRA.
     
  10. aitchuk

    aitchuk Member

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    Question? If as a qualified club coach but not recognised by my club as such how
    would I stand inducting and coaching a prospective new member.

    2,what would be my possition if asked for advice or help by a member.
    would I be concidered just a member offreing advice? or a coach becouse
    I hold the relevant qualification?

    Or as we stand in this time of the blame culture would I be wiser to resign
    my status as a coach?

    Then just carry on as normal ?

    Aitch
     
  11. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    As i understand it, scenario one requires you to instruct on a formal basis, so you need to be an NSRA member, scenario 2 doesn't.
     
  12. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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  13. Gwylan

    Gwylan New Member

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    Hi Rob,

    These are the views of members of Dartmoor Marksmen, which overlap some points already made by Rich Clark, who organised the Club Instructor course which you led, at Shebbear this year. Four of our members took part, three of which wanted the qualification to help members of our club, and one who wanted to add to his knowledge and experience, for his own benefit.

    At no time were they informed that NSRA membership was required for this qualification.
    When asked if they would have been prepared to put up the cost of NSRA membership for five years to qualify, they all said, "No way!"

    Three of the four had to take time off work, which meant inconvenience, or financial penalty.

    Our Club subsidised the cost of the course for three members, ie £195. If we recover £25 costs each for CRB checks that now do not take place, the club is still £120 down.

    I have just realised that my own ticket needs renewing, but as I am not an NSRA member, and my CRB check is not approved by the NSRA, I can't at present do so. The other DM instructor is in a similar position, so all coaching activities at DM must cease, this comprises the following.

    At present, I help Rich Clark at Shebbear every Wednesday, coaching twelve youngsters as an after school activity.
    On Sundays, DM instructors are involved with coaching four youngsters for their Duke of Edinburgh Awards, as well as helping members improve their shooting.
    I have recently been approached by the Royal Marines to help coach a team of disabled ex-servicemen in preparation for a "Wounded Warriors" competition in the US in the spring.
    Clearly, none of the above activities can now take place.
    Is this the light in which the NSRA wish to be seen?

    It seems to me that, in the past, coaching activities were covered by BFTA club insurance.
    Surely, NSRA club insurance could include coaches, even a limited number. After all, at present, a new member can visit a club, injure someone, and still be covered. Coaches, whose first priority is to drum safety rules into their charges, and reinforce them at every chance, are not covered. It's a crazy world..!

    Richard "Gus" Guscott Sec. DMFTC.
     
  14. carlotwelding

    carlotwelding New Member

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    i too was on that said course and at no point was i told i needed to be nsra full member, i took two days off without pay and paid for the course, the instructor should have informed us of all the facts. i for one would have pulled out. think i would like a full refund and loss of wages for todays thanks .bet i won't be the only one asking for refund.
     
  15. dae2830

    dae2830 Member

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    Roll on AGM(i know NSRA is nothing to do with SWEFTA)

    Roll on Trophy shoot

    Roll on 2012 season and hope everything runs more smoothly than this year.

    Just want to take this oppurtunity to thank all commitie members for sorting out this years shoots and all kitchen staff etc etc across the clubs :D:D

    Gutted about the new fees thrown upon us,have been waiting a long time for certs and crb paperwork(as ROBF knows:)
    Looking forward to helping people out at our club,especially the marines as GUS stated.

    HELP FOR HEROS and all that.now its gone
     
  16. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    The candidates were told that NSRA club insurance did not cover them. I distinctly remember that, but i also do remember there was not much of an issue, especially when i mentioned it was only 1/2 price this year and covered kit insurance. It was wrapped up in the CRB mention.

    The candiates still passed the course, they can either accept the certificate, or join and practice what they learnt.

    I agree that the manner in which information has been passed down has largely lead to this issue. There is a number of communications errors and assuptions on all parts that have lead to this.

    I hope the main point of the course has not been lost, but if people are practicing in a quasi professional manner then they should have a firm grasp on their insurance and liabilities.

    If people are more concerned about the pass/fail and certification for passing the course, then there is no issue as that aspect is covered.

    As far as cancellation costs go, if that was the case then there'd be a bill for the travelodge (because to save money that was booked with no cancellation insurance), admin materials, and i suppose I could weigh in with a large fee for my two days as well from work. If people drop out of courses with 1 week to go and effectively double the cost for others remaining to do the course, then there will be costs involved beyond that. Everyone is concerned with trying to keep costs down, that is why i charge for outlay expenses only (accomodation/travel/consumables & not food or my time off work). I don't even attempt to recoup my membership fee or the costs it took to get the qualifications to run the courses in the first place. But we do what we can for the love of the sport.

    I agree totally that this issue doesn't seem to be hitting home with clubs, and that there is no alternative except perhaps signing to another NGB, which may not prove to be any more economical or less problematic.

    We can all sling mud, and there is an understandable amount of emotion, but if people want to rip into each other and other bodies over this then i doubt anyone will come out smelling of roses. NSRA, BFTA or individuals or the insurance company/broker. As I have repeatedly said, there seems to be a very blase view to insurance that you sign a cheque and you are covered... it amazes me that there is not one person on here that has even seen the 500 page NSRA policy wording document for the insurance of their club. Unfortunately the world has moved into a very litigious place, a point I strongly made when I spoke about CRB and Child Protection on the course.
     
  17. dae2830

    dae2830 Member

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    i must admit robf that i do recall you mentioning a 1/2 price deal during the course but didnt realise i HAD to get it to be covered etc.hopefully this will all be sorted out sooner rather than later:confused:
     
  18. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    Thanks... I thought i was going potty, that's a blessed relief that someone remembers it, and I cannot apologise enough for it not being made cast iron clear.

    I hope things can be sorted soon as well.
     
  19. aitchuk

    aitchuk Member

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    As Robf has pointed out this is insuraance driven and as our insurers cover all sports
    they are covering their backs against a claim.

    But as a none contact sport may be the BFTA or the NSRA can make them see sence
    but as we are talking about a insurance company I will not hold my breath

    So after my inetial outrage I will now have to rethink as to how much I still want to
    help devolepe the shooters at my club (does the pleasure derived from teaching justiffy the cost)

    Aitch
     
  20. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    It might be down to clubs to work out the value of their training staff as well. If there is a revenue stream to be lost then perhaps the club can adjust that to cover the costs. If a coach/instructor is covering a session once a month then that's £6 a month extra the club has to find for one instructor (CRB being included in the price of the current courses). If there's 6 people in that session then it's a £ each.
     

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