Kneeling rules

Discussion in 'Hunter (HFT) & Field Target (FT)' started by Gibbs, Nov 14, 2011.

  1. Gibbs

    Gibbs New Member

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    I didn't want to hijack the alternate position thread, so my question is,
    Are the kneeling rules clear cut? and what is it that so many people are supposedly doing wrong?

    As I understand it, you must have three points of contact with the ground, your rear foot must be upright (and can't be sat on, or horizontal) and you can't support the leading arm above the wrist.

    I have heard people complaining about others kneeling on their beanbag, but I can't see this gives any advantage (apart from keeping your knee clean)
    And I believe I can roll my beanbag up and use it to support my ankle? Am I breaking any rules doing this?
    Atb,

    Alec.
     
  2. Conor

    Conor Never been banned from sales Staff Member

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    Hi Alec,
    The problem arises when the bean bag is used to support the ankle AND it supports the bum and thigh at same time, many are not even aware they are doing it but basically a big enough bag can be sat on!
     
  3. Gibbs

    Gibbs New Member

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    Thank's Conor,
    I'm glad I'm in the clear! I have a very underfilled beanbag as it's better for me to be as low as possible behind the gun when sitting, but I can see how a large/well stuffed beanbag could end up supporting more than it should.
    Some of them probably exceed the 4 inch thickness rule too!?

    Atb,

    Alec.
     
  4. Ratinator

    Ratinator 77.74

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    large round bag's

    Alec
    The bag's in question are the large round bag's.
    Conor's comment's on people not knowing,i have seen people put such a small amount of bag under there shin it's imposible not to know what they are upto.
    Basicly the bag inflate's under their arse and they sit on it.
    I for one would like to see disaplin lane's marshalled properly.
    After all it's the marshall's job to uphold the rule's as well as fix dodgy target's.
    Me personally i think if the kneelers go then people can not cheat at hitting them.
    simon
     
  5. NJR 100

    NJR 100 Because I`m AWESIME !!

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    Yet i have found exactly the opposite.

    The large bag i use, if rolled, or tried to fold /roll up under my ankle become far too unweildy and if anything, unbalanced me. however, the smaller bag was perfect size and yes gave far more support, it did indeed feel as if i was sitting down as all weight and i got plenty, was taken by the bag.

    Solution is to change the rule so bag can be used for keeping knee clean only perhaps?

    Getting rid of kneeling shoots is a backwards step to me. roll on 25 ml kneelers:D
     
  6. Garagefairy

    Garagefairy New Member

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    My own, totally unofficial, take on a kneeler is that:
    3 points of contact should be allowed: leading foot flat on ground, opposite knee in contact with ground and opposite foot in contact with ground. I believe the sole of the opposite foot should be vertical with the toe area only in contact with the ground. I do not believe the top of the opposite foot should be flat on the ground allowing the sole of the foot to be horizontal and so act as a seat when a bean bag is used to support the area between top of foot and ankle/shin. Note that it is quite clear and already forbidden that the 'outside' ankle of the opposite foot cannot be flat on the ground to allow the shooter to sit on the 'inside' ankle and side of the foot.
    I stress that this is only my opinion and although I see many people shooting with a bean bag support and sitting on the sole of the opposite foot I do not believe this position is forbidden under current HFT rules. It does, however, seem to provide a more stable position than the one I have described and allow the kneeling position to become a 2 point of contact when a bean bag is used, viz: the leading foot with sole in contact with the ground as contact point 1 and then the opposite knee, shin and top of foot coupled with the bean bag all acting as a convenient seat in contact with the ground as contact point 2.
    Whether it provides a competitive advantage to those who use this 2 point contact position I do not know.
    Personally it does not really bother me.
    Now retreats to await the flack
    Gf
     
  7. Gibbs

    Gibbs New Member

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    I wouldn't want kneelers taken out of the comp's, that would be a great shame.
    As for keeping your knee clean, firstly I don't care anymore and just get a dirty knee. But occasionally in the past (when the ground was wet) I have used just the thickness of the beanbag material under my knee and used the stuffing at the other end under my ankle giving me no added advantage except a clean knee!

    Atb,

    Alec.
     
  8. berty177

    berty177 Judge Diva

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    Large shooting seats

    Sadly lads, I use a large bean bag myself and would be disgusted if I was using mine to gain an advantage by cheating.

    I don't roll my bag up like other people do as I place it under my right knee.

    I could say that people who use small bags rolled up are looking for the same advantage.

    I agree that marshals should be more proactive at kneeling lanes.

    I don't agree that people who use the larger seats are cheating. I'd be happy for anyone to marshal myself when I'm competing.....


    Berty
     
  9. mikewills8904

    mikewills8904 walthers last the course

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    kneeling

    i agree with berty on this i use a large bag ,and i roll up a part of it .
    i would be more than happy to be marshalled on any kneeling shot .my bumis on my back foot and not the bag

    there are far more infringements with leading hands on kneelers than bums on bags
     
  10. poison dwarf

    poison dwarf BANNED

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    For HFT seems obvious to me:
    1. If you want to keep your knee clean use a mat
    2. If you want ankle support use a kneeling roll the same as the 3 position 10m match shooters use.
    Sorted :)
     
  11. Ratinator

    Ratinator 77.74

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    large bag's

     
  12. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    seems the common agreement is kneeling lanes should be marshaled.. ;)
     
  13. NJR 100

    NJR 100 Because I`m AWESIME !!

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    Which just leaves finding a marshal who is up on the rules and prepared to enforce them?

    I dont have a problem with the rules as they are, those that think people are gaining an advantage (some say cheating?) by placing a bag under the ankle and gaining support are also allowed to do likewise.
    I like keeping my knee clean.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2011
  14. villiers

    villiers Self appointed antipimp

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    Kneeling

    The next time someone sees me shooting a kneeling lane who is up to speed on what is right and wrong could they please let me know if i am doing it right, I promise i will listen no point in doing it wrong as my kneeling shot is the one i feel is the most comfortable of any of my positions. As i don't use a roll or bag at all.
    Don
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2011
  15. Conor

    Conor Never been banned from sales Staff Member

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    I think it an excellent suggestion to use an ankle roll to support the ankle, I don't see any problem using a bag of any size to protect the knee.
    Some may have picked me up wrong, not everyone (and possibly no one) using a large bag are cheating, what I did suggest is that it can and could be used as extra support, AND some may not even realise they are doing it! I even have to be careful when using a smaller rangesports bag that it doesnt puff up and support my fat ass, I support my ankle due to dodgy ligaments I tore a few years back at ladys football.
     
  16. saltydog

    saltydog I smell something fishy

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    If your fat Conor then I'm morbidly obese. and gaelic football is not the panzy version either get your facts sorted before making comments that make me depressed about my weight, now where's the fridge till I eat something and get over this depressed feeling ;D
     
  17. Petervw

    Petervw Member

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    I use a rangesports mat , use 1 part for the knee , fold the rest to support my ankle
    am I on the safe side with this ?

    Peter
     
  18. aitchuk

    aitchuk Member

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    At a resent GP I noted several people roling a large bag into a sausage.
    Then using this to surport the full lenthe of the lower leg the result of this
    ment next to no weight was on the foot and the knee was 4-6 inches of
    the floor most people didn't see this as a infringment.
    But the rule does say 3 points of contact with the bag used only to keep
    the knee clean not elevated.

    Aitch
     
  19. NJR 100

    NJR 100 Because I`m AWESIME !!

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    i have to be carefull i dont do that with my bag as i fiound it less stable. Took me ages to work out why me kneelers had gone so bad and wobbly.
     
  20. Ceathreamhnan

    Ceathreamhnan WHFTA Champion 2013

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    I've found in the fairly short time I've been doing HFT that, in the kneelers, if my rear trailing front-of-ankle (bottom of shin) is not supported somehow, it's excruciatingly painful. Unlike some, I can't straighten out my foot so the front of the ankle sits on the ground, so it has to be elevated a bit (getting old).
    I've been using a Caldwell shooting rest bag under my ankle and this is comfortable enough that I can actually take the shot, otherwise I'd have to stand! :eek:
    I also think it's more comfortable kneeling in the mud than on a hard mat....that's what waterproofs are for.
     

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