Kneeling Roll (NEFTA)

Discussion in 'Hunter (HFT) & Field Target (FT)' started by Yorkshiretea, Jan 31, 2016.

  1. Yorkshiretea

    Yorkshiretea B Grade Bandit

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    Been trying these at the club and on shoots, got to say for me they are very easy to use and you get use't to them pretty quick. Straightens my back up that's for sure. The 100mm one isn't big enough for me but the 150mm is bob on.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Anyone else being trying them out?
     
  2. MickyFinn

    MickyFinn I❤HFT

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    I tried this yesterday @ Anston & with the addition of the car mat (for broken/uneven/hard ground) it works a treat!
     
  3. Yorkshiretea

    Yorkshiretea B Grade Bandit

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  4. AIRFIX GILLY

    AIRFIX GILLY WFTA World Champion 2012

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    Roll

    I will be using the roll along with a floor mat and cushioned knee pad!;):shot:
    It's mega comfortable, steadier on aim too.
     
  5. fatwelshboy

    fatwelshboy Member

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    I ordered a few of the 15cm X 30cm foam rollers off Physio Room for myself and a couple of WAFTA lads. We tried them up the club yesterday and they work. The roll ensured boots were upright and you can't sit your thigh on the roll, all it does is support your ankle.
     
  6. Yorkshiretea

    Yorkshiretea B Grade Bandit

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  7. berty177

    berty177 Judge Diva

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    Works well

    I tried Chris's one up nelson yesterday and found it good to use.

    With a mat I think they could be used without any issue.

    Takes away a lot of issues that keep coming up on kneeling rules as well...


    Berty
     
  8. Air Armed

    Air Armed MFTA Secretary

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  9. Brian.Samson

    Brian.Samson Allowed in Sales Staff Member

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    I'm sold on mine - spot on.

    Impossible to cheat, comfortable to use. Not only for the few shots you might take in a competition but also for practicing. It's not as stable as sitting, but more stable than standing - exactly what a kneeling position should be.

    I think the WFTF have got it right with their rule change to ban beanbags on kneelers and I don't think it'll take too long before UK shooters come round to that way of thinking too. I'm convinced.
     
  10. shaun elliott

    shaun elliott Active Member

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    Just ordered one like yours Martin hope there good
     
  11. Yorkshiretea

    Yorkshiretea B Grade Bandit

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    They are, like Gilly mentioned up thread they are very comfy, kinda surprised how good they are and puzzled why we haven't been using them forever :)
     
  12. shaun elliott

    shaun elliott Active Member

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    I no mad or what but they are the future
     
  13. DeanB

    DeanB Member

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    Hi Brian,
    Is there a reason not to adopt the kneeling rolls that another shooting discipline uses eg the ahg or Kurt Thune rolls. Is the problem that some might still cheat?
    DeanB
     
  14. Yorkshiretea

    Yorkshiretea B Grade Bandit

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    Don't think it's got anything to do with cheating Dean, I think the main reason is the rolls we are using don't or won't hold water and don't weight a ton when filled, oh and they don't cost £25 either.
     
  15. DeanB

    DeanB Member

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    I don't think they'll weigh a ton when wet if they are made from the same material as sitting bean bags. As to cost, that depends what companies want to charge (same as sitting bags). Spoke with Marc Fisher last week and he said kneeling rolls are very easy to make. I reckon a kneeling roll made of bean bag material will outlast a pilates roll used outside.

    I'm not trying to start any debate about which rolls can be used. It just seems a little like re-inventing the wheel. I assume that other shooting disciples already have rules about the bags and the kneeling position so why not use that information and save effort from volunteers.
    DeanB
     
  16. Yorkshiretea

    Yorkshiretea B Grade Bandit

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    Fair point mate, I only know one person who does 3 positions and his is full of rice but I guess you could fill it with what you wanted and if you don't mind a roll that soaks up water coolio but yeah I think we are re-inventing the wheel a little bit but someone's got to try stuff out and report back :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2016
  17. Brian.Samson

    Brian.Samson Allowed in Sales Staff Member

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    FT is very different to other shooting disciplines. Otherwise you could say, why not just use the same rules for kneeling as other sports.

    I can answer that question for you - because FT isn't shot on level ground at level targets and the FT kneeling position tends to be shot with your forearm resting on the thigh whereas 3P has the elbow more forward (I believe)

    It's probably not productive to go into another round of why don't we do this, or why don't we do that etc etc. We've had a few threads like that. If you've got a good idea, try it out and let everyone know.

    The kneeling roll is a rule for the Worlds - it's happened and it's voted in. The beanbag is out.

    The decision by the regions at the BFTA AGM was to allow kneeling rolls in BFTA competitions so that people can prepare for the World Championships, so I guess it would seem sensible to allow WFTF legal kneeling rolls since that's the aim.

    No one is being forced to change what they currently do - if people are happy with what they currently do, by all means continue doing that.

    It's early days for kneeling rolls in FT, I'm sure as more and more people start to use them we'll figure out what works well and what doesn't. That's kinda the whole point in allowing them in BFTA events - we'll have a season's worth of experience in what does and doesn't work before we rock up to the Worlds. That's got to be a good thing for British FT.

    I've been using a kneeling roll in the NEFTA winter league this season and I already know a lot more about what works and what doesn't work than I did before I started using one. I expect others will come up with their own ideas.
     
  18. DeanB

    DeanB Member

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    Perhaps re-inventing the roll rather than the wheel. My concern is that other disciplines have, I assume, already created a usable kneeling rule and bag.
    If we go down the route of pilates rolls there will have to be some definition of shape and maybe resistance. Just
    saying the roll can be up to 15cm diameter does not seem to be working already - the roll Andy is using is a not circular. It has flat base.
    Where will this end? Can the roils have a flat top and base? Can they have a recess into which you fit the shin? I just wonder if we go with the rules from another disciple if we can avoid all of those discussions.
    DeanB
     
  19. Yorkshiretea

    Yorkshiretea B Grade Bandit

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    We're about to find out. The reason Andy's has a flat underside is he's investigating if one tapered roll would suit everyone so 100mm to 150mm.

    Here's the rules from ISSF

    7.5.8.5 Kneeling Roll
    Only one (1) cylindrically shaped roll is allowed for shooting in the
    kneeling position. The dimensions are a maximum of 25 cm long
    and 18 cm in diameter. It must be made of soft and flexible
    material. Binding or other devices to shape the roll are not
    permitted.

    7.5.8.6 Kneeling Heel Pad
    A separate piece of flexible, compressible material with maximum
    dimensions of 20 cm x 20 cm may be placed on the heel in the
    kneeling position. The kneeling heel pad may be no thicker than
    10 mm when compressed with

    7.6.1.1 Kneeling
    a) The athlete may touch the firing point surface with the toe of
    the right foot, the right knee and the left foot;
    b) The rifle may be held with both hands and the right shoulder;
    c) The cheek may be placed against the rifle stock;
    d) The left elbow must be supported on the left knee;
    e) The point of the elbow must not be more than 100 mm over
    or 150 mm behind the point of the knee;
    f) The rifle may be supported by the sling but the fore-end
    behind the left hand must not touch the shooting jacket;
    g) No part of the rifle may touch the sling or its attachments;
    h) The rifle must not touch or rest against any other point or
    object;
    i) If the kneeling roll is placed under the right foot or ankle, the
    foot must not be turned at an angle of more than 45 degrees;
    j) If the kneeling roll is not used, the foot may be placed at any
    angle. This may include placing the side of the foot and the
    lower leg in contact with the surface of the firing point;
    k) No portion of the upper leg or buttocks may touch the surface
    of the firing point or shooting mat at any point;
    l) If the athlete uses the shooting mat he may kneel completely
    on the shooting mat or may have one (1) or two (2) of three
    (3) points of contact (toe, knee, foot) on the mat. Other
    articles or padding may not be placed under the right knee;
    m) Only the trousers and underclothing may be worn between
    the athlete's seat and heel, except that a kneeling heel pad
    may be used. The jacket or other articles must not be placed
    between these two (2) points; and
    n) The right hand may not touch the left hand, left arm or the left
    sleeve of the shooting jacket or sling.
     
  20. Brian.Samson

    Brian.Samson Allowed in Sales Staff Member

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    Not sure who you mean by "We"?
    Do you mean the BFTA or the WFTF ?

    I think the BFTA are probably going to allow WFTF legal rolls.

    So if you mean the WFTF, I can probably answer that since I'll be providing the training for the marshals on how to police the kneeling lanes at the Worlds.

    If you consider the rule we have regarding beanbags which we've had for a long time - that hasn't got any of those stipulations regarding resistance or shape and despite that we're still able to use them.

    The approach we'll take (by we I mean the WFTF marshals) is to apply some common sense. The definition at the moment of a kneeling roll is that it should be roll shaped, have a maximum diameter of 18cm and the jury's still out on what the maximum length should be. The time for further discussion on the matter has passed unfortunately, so there's little point in having any.

    The point regarding flat bottoms or shaped sides etc will be assessed if it becomes an issue at the World Championships in Portugal. It will be assessed by a multi-nationality jury of at least 5 members should the question be raised.

    If I was on the jury (and there's a good chance I might be) I would probably rule that so long as you weren't gaining significant lateral support, a small indentation in the roll is acceptable. Also a flat bottomed roll is also acceptable. The definition says "Roll" shaped - if what you're using isn't Roll shaped and it looks like you're taking the 'p' and gaining an advantage, you might come unstuck and lose some targets.

    There's really no point in coming up with a load of suggestions - it's happened for the WFTF, there's no more discussion on the matter and no more proposals for voting on until after Portugal.

    Where will it end? Hopefully at a sensible outcome - where common sense prevails and people taking the 'p' are spotted and set straight in no uncertain terms.

    If people don't like it and don't want to shoot the Worlds in Portugal or Wales in 2017 - just ignore it and carry on doing what you're doing, nothing has changed for you at all.
     

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