Jsb clarification please .

Discussion in 'General Airgun Chat' started by hmangphilly, Apr 8, 2015.

  1. hmangphilly

    hmangphilly The Doctor

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    Hello all ,
    I recently noticed jsb pellets same Die no. .... I think 42 but in two different head sizes 451 and 452 .both were express

    And I've got some of the sought after exacts in die 34s in 452 , but just seen 2 different batches of exact die34 in 453 .

    So , is there a die for each head size ?
    Or do different batches come out of the same die with different head sizes ?

    Mildly puzzled ..,,
     
  2. Brian.Samson

    Brian.Samson Allowed in Sales Staff Member

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    The head size is stamped on the die, and that's the number they're supposed to put on the tin.

    They don't actually measure the head size, just take whatever the die manufacturer have stamped on the die and put that on the tin.

    (That info is from Mr JSB himself, when RobF asked him that question in Germany in 2013)


    It's anyone's guess as to why the same die number can apparently have 2 different head sizes.
    Labelling error? There's been a replacement die 34 ?
     
  3. sven

    sven Member

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    Yes, I noticed the same with my die no. 11. The same die number produces different headsizes. I do not know why but I noticed that the larger headsize also had a higher batch number (no. 4 for the 4.53 compared to 0 for the 4.52). (Batch no. is the number on the second line in front of the head size).
    My guess is that the die wears during use and the higher the batch number the more it has worn out the larger the head size.

    I was told by JSB that they do not make the dies aimed at a certain head size. But they make a die and determine the head size by measuring the pellet it produces afterwards.

    It could also be that the headsize depends on the batch of lead that is used. There may be differences in crystalline structure of the lead between batches. Caused by differences in cooling, forming and stretching of the lead string. The one batch of lead may respond differently to the pressing in the die than the other resulting in slightly different headsizes.

    Both my die 11 batches with the different headsizes 4.52 and 4.53 and batch numbers 0 and 4 shoot with the same good accuracy from the same rifle.
     
  4. Brian.Samson

    Brian.Samson Allowed in Sales Staff Member

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    Rob asked Josef (Mr JSB himself) about head sizes when we met him in Ebern in 2013.

    Josef said that they don't measure the head size, they get sent the dies from the toolmakers and it has a head size stamped on the die, and that's what they put on the tin. I got the impression that JSB don't make the dies themselves from that conversation.
     
  5. sven

    sven Member

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    Thanks for the added info Brian. I have my info from a conversation with the current managing director of JSB; Pavel Kolebac. He told me this during the European championship 10m Airguns last March.

    Looking at the tins labelled with different headsizes but the same die number my guess would be that what Pavel has told me is the way they do it today. (having noticed the tins with the different headsizes but same die number was actually the reason to ask him about this). JSB may have changed the way they determine headsize between 2013 and today. Pavel told me that currently Josef Schulz is retired and not very active anymore at the JSB factory. He is around every now and then but not working for JSB anymore.
    You are right about the dies. JSB does not produce them. They order them from a toolmaker as you say.
     
  6. Brian.Samson

    Brian.Samson Allowed in Sales Staff Member

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    Thanks Sven, good to have more info on the subject.

    The reason Rob asked was because I'm sure you know that if you actually measure the head sizes from a selection of pellets from a tin, you'll get quite a big variation, and rarely get an average figure of the size quoted on the tin, effectively making the quoted head size a meaningless number.

    I know I have a tin of 4.52's and a tin of 4.51's in my pellet crate at the moment where the 4.52's are much smaller than the 4.51's. The 4.51's are a tight fit in my barrel and the 4.52's literally fall out if I hold the rifle pointing upwards.

    The only thing I take for granted now with JSB's is that tins with exactly the same numbers (die/batch/headsize, everything!) then those pellets all seem to perform the same.

    I can't rely on one die 34 being as good as another die 34 from a different batch even if outwardly they look exactly the same.

    :D Perhaps they should change the pellet name to "JSB not as Exact as you'd hope"
     
  7. Ceathreamhnan

    Ceathreamhnan WHFTA Champion 2013

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    The head size printed on the label means nothing in my experience. The Czech team captain who tests them out in the JSB tunnel told me JSB treat them as 'marketing'.
    I recently took 4 Exact tins of different dies with declared sizes of 4.50, 4.51. 4.52 x2, all from 2014 manufacture, and measured the head size with vernier calipers, as best as I could. JSB had sent me these in a job lot of about 12 tins all made at the same time.
    I measured at least ten pellets from each, until a pattern developed. They were ALL 4.46mm. The skirts were all 4.6mm.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2015
  8. Yorkshiretea

    Yorkshiretea B Grade Bandit

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    Are you sure you are reading the numbers correctly?

    [​IMG]
     
  9. hmangphilly

    hmangphilly The Doctor

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    could be yorkshire,
    i've got
    34000013 1 4.52

    then

    3480015 1 4.53

    and then


    3490015 1 4.53

    not sure why the first on has an extra digit

    rob ....can you stick up a pic of those die 42 s for us or just list the numbers...

    the 42s deffo shot differently both in my walther and at least one steyr possibly 2 .....

    definite grouping difference between the 451 and 452.

    interesting innit........

    i hope i havent got this round my neck .......we'll see.
     
  10. Brian.Samson

    Brian.Samson Allowed in Sales Staff Member

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    You've got die 34 as 4.52 and two lots of die 3 as 4.53.

    They remove the zero padding at the start of the number, so it should really be :

    34000013
    03480015
    03490015

    But they trim off the leading zero
     
  11. Yorkshiretea

    Yorkshiretea B Grade Bandit

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    34000013 1 4.52
    3480015 1 4.53
    3490015 1 4.53

    If my thinking is right the top one is Die 34 and others are Die 3.
     
  12. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    Not die 34 :eek:
     
  13. hmangphilly

    hmangphilly The Doctor

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    thats possible they were on a list of availables.

    couldnt believe me luck till i saw the size

    not many of the first ones left .

    now , how about robs 42s .
     
  14. TOOL

    TOOL Independent FT Pumper

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    I've seen on a BBC news bulletin that a rouge tin of Die 34's was spotted on a beach near you Rob ?

    The other 250 tins are safe in my dining room so don't panic.
     
  15. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    Sssshh... :D
     
  16. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    It could be. Local rumours are there's an colony of them nearby and several escaped. But the locals may have eaten them all.
     
  17. TOOL

    TOOL Independent FT Pumper

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    Along with another 90 tins of mega Express with Waggers name on !
     
  18. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    I'm growing my own batch of those... :D
     
  19. TOOL

    TOOL Independent FT Pumper

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    You can't , I'm Waggers only source for premium lightweight slugs
     
  20. hmangphilly

    hmangphilly The Doctor

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    mate ive obviously misread the suposed 34 no.s , thats fair enough but the point was that are there same die nos with different head sizes did i imagine that too on your's


    ive just spotted these too
    46470014 4 451
    46480015 6 452

    45480015 2 452
    45560015 2 453

    these the same die different head ?
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2015

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