I fear another rule change is on its way......

Discussion in 'Hunter (HFT) & Field Target (FT)' started by Darron, Aug 24, 2018.

  1. simmmo

    simmmo New Member

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    If you place a Nockover target on the side of a tree at right angles to the paddle you will find especially after a comp where more than a hundred people have shot at it lots of lead fragments usually discs which are the fully flattened pellets embedded in the tree. To my mind this indicates that the pellet almost instantaneously dumps all its energy completely deforms almost to the point of disintegrating especially at say 30yds, at 45 to 50 it fully flattens at sub 12ft lb and exits immediately left or right at 20ft lb I would expect the same but with more deformation.

    Nockover targets when hit correctly fall extremely quickly. I along with others have tried to shoot the paddle twice at 27yds with a SA Steyr. No one managed to do it. I find it hard to believe that a standard Nockover once released from its lock up when placed correctly is going anywhere other than down unless the string is caught up. I personally cannot see how a lead pellet that has hit the paddle correctly so therefore destroyed itself into a flattened saucer can then bounce off something with enough force to push back up a Nockover target set correctly. What I can believe is a splitter rocks the face plate and paddle but the paddle doesn't go far enough back, even to the point of the paddle almost completely disappearing from view depending on target placement, to disengage and release the mechanism so it can fall and then the weight of the faceplate pulls it back into position. Seen that a few times. Also splitters that move the paddle back and it doesn't return but stays hanging out of place.

    Can't comment on none lead projectiles other than to say they sound like an eye removal tool.

    Monkey
     
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  2. SteveC200

    SteveC200 Well-Known Member

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    Oh, odd. Works ok for me.
     
  3. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    Indeed.

    If you look at high speed video of lead pellets being shot (and others) they essentially act like a liquid. The pellet 'splashes' and spreads sideways in the same way water would. This is one of the reasons why the BFTA have a rule on targets closer than 20 yds about how they are angled to the line.



    There's some heavier weight stuff here



    I can see a splash coming back under certain circumstances, but I don't see the energy being there from a splash to hold up the target, as most of it will have been imparted forward and in the deformation, only a fraction could remain coming back. And if that's enough to pull the paddle back up then I can see how wind can hold the target up because the target isn't set right for 12ft-lb.
     
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  4. Adam

    Adam Well-Known Member

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    The vast majority of hits will be as you say. However there is always a small proportion of odd anomalies.

    As an example, about 10 years ago I was plinking at Guiseley at targets including nockover resetting ducks/pigeons (knock head down, hit killzone to reset head). A clubmate was shooting at a target approx 25-30 yards away and was sitting about 5 yards to the side of me. He hit the head, knocked it down and a ricochet whined off into the air. Roughly a second later I got a whack on the shoulder. It didn't sting but it would have had I not been wearing a jacket. A sizeable chunk of the pellet had bounced off the head back towards the firing line, angled in the air due to the head pivoting back, with enough energy to travel 25 yards with some left over. This was a .177 JSB from a sub 12 FT rifle. The tilting head of that plinking target is lighter and pivots more than an FT target paddle, but the point is that given even a slight angle, not all the energy is taken up by deformation against the paddle. Lead deforms but steel is springy and this can easily result in chunks bouncing back. I can well believe that, in certain combinations of factors, a chunk of pellet bouncing back off the paddle could perform one of these "ricochet resets".
     
  5. dave croucher

    dave croucher FT, the sport where simple becomes complicated

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    Ricochet reset:):):) father christmas is real and there are pixies at the end of my garden.
     
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  6. C.Eaton

    C.Eaton Confirmed Anschutz Nut...

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    I was going to say this is in the realms of fantasy that a pellet that successfully hits a paddle over so pulling the faceplate with it could ricochet back on itself and reset the same target...;)
    Easy way to test is to stick a down target out backwards with a lump of angled metal that directs the pellet onto the back in an effort to reset it by pellet power alone. You'll rattle it no doubt, but reset it, never.
    In fact I go so far to say that if someone can video this happening Dave Croucher will buy everyone a drink at WFTW 2019...:D
     
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  7. Adam

    Adam Well-Known Member

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    :rolleyes: It's not about it resetting the target if it's fallen over! In Scott's post he's talking about the ricochet catching the faceplate as it's just gone over centre, or even just about to go.
     
  8. C.Eaton

    C.Eaton Confirmed Anschutz Nut...

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    Ahh, you've gone and spoilt it now and just when Rob was going to come back with a page worth of vector energy calculations to prove that it is possible but only once every 100 billion years when the moon, Sun and Jupiter line up perfectly to exert that little bit of extra pull....:D
     
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  9. Scott Hull

    Scott Hull Member

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    +1

    I would not attempt to guess at the odds. Could be 1 in a million, or 1 in a 1000.

    Even if the odds of it happening were only 1 in 20,000
    It would likely happen a couple of time at each Worlds match.

    It happens, as do a bunch of other low probability events. It was just one example. No need to get hung up on it.

    The main point is that no matter what we do, $#!? will happen, and we would be better off if we accepted that.

    The incentivized (I looked it up - it's a real word:D) protest system as it currently stands just makes things worse.
     
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  10. wrecker

    wrecker 2018 British Champion. Member of the 50 Club

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    Not so sure about ricochet reset but the targets in Poland were sub standard. I didn't call any myself but pretty sure I hit 1 on the final day that didn't drop. I know Gilly hit another that didn't drop he was one of 5 people that claim to have hit it.
     
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  11. simmmo

    simmmo New Member

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    Have started drinking so the masses will be glad that I no longer drink and type. BUT.

    How on Earth could anyone see/notice a richochet reset without the use of high speed photography if we are saying the target starts to go then gets stopped and resets. They fall so quick and with force. Do The Monkey Test trip the paddle with your hand on the base plate, fluck me that hurts.

    Why does it cost so much to put on a FT World Championship, 75,000 pounds wow can someone tell me where all that money goes 100 or so Tin Chickens and? Us poor Mud Rollers are obviously doing something wrong we put on shoots for peanuts.

    Monkey
     
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  12. RichWafta

    RichWafta Second time around

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    Might be worth WFTF drawing up an approved list of target makers. All World Championships to use approved targets only.
    If S.A. or any other country who manufacture their own targets believe they are up to standard, then one gets sent to a "target expert" for approval and added to the list.
     
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  13. C.Eaton

    C.Eaton Confirmed Anschutz Nut...

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    I have caught my fingers between paddle and base tipping up a target so I can attest to the force as they go down.
    Regarding the £75k and WTF it all goes you are forgetting the laws of diminishing returns that all Government and Councils operate to:

    "Ok we have £X million to spend that we've collected from the great unwashed, how are we going to spend all this lovely free wonga?
    I know, let's have extended meetings to kick it around the park, bring all our mates in as consultants so they can kick it around the park while charging us mind-boggling fees that we'll skim off to you for bringing us in as said consultants"

    Have a few meetings/consultations to decide the format, shape of the table, what biscuits are going to be served at the REAL meetings then make a few payments as deposits on services etc.
    Fly out the entire team for a few weeks to kick around at the site itself, staying in a top hotel with all XX's paid for then head home to prepare for the REAL meeting.

    Hold the REAL meeting, after ten minutes adjourn it and reschedule it for a weeks time again keeping all consultants on retainers as they're dropping you back-handers like it's going out of fashion.

    You think I'm joking, right...o_O
     
  14. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    The supposed 75k is easy to explain.

    First you need a venue with about 600 seated and served capacity for the closing ceremony which is a mandatory part of the event. Rightly because it brings in 5 figures of sponsorship.

    Now include food at that for several hundred people.

    Then you have the simlar for the opening ceremony.

    Add rooms for training courses
    And meeting rooms. Then strap land onto the side thar can take 300 cars, 200m wide plink and enough room for 150 targets. Then add an area for admin. Maybe room for an few have a go ranges.

    Maybe add a fully staffed restaurant and bar.

    Then add all the course trimmings, signs, av medical cover, insurance etc

    Then add the expenses for say 25 people to build and run the event over the two weeks.

    Sit down with a calculator and work that lot out.

    If you think we are blowing this on lavish meetings and expenses then we’ve been doing it wrong. So far a few people have been coughing up for their own fuel to travel 100s of miles and spend their days off working on it.

    So I think the question is, which bits are other events cutting out?
     
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  15. Andy P

    Andy P Gently does it......

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    They are real Dave I’ve seen them, I’ve even sat on his knee.
     
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  16. bluespots

    bluespots New Member

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    I keep insisting you need glasses.......

    Now I have no doubts.......
     
  17. simmmo

    simmmo New Member

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    The supposed 75k is easy to explain.

    First you need a venue with about 600 seated and served capacity for the closing ceremony which is a mandatory part of the event. Rightly because it brings in 5 figures of sponsorship.

    Ok so thats 10 bags of sand for sponsorship so we are now at 65. What does that sponsorship provide?

    Now include food at that for several hundred people.

    Its all free they don't buy their own? Why

    Then you have the simlar for the opening ceremony.

    So basically how much a head? How many heads

    Add rooms for training courses

    Sorry very nieve here training courses for who for what? Who is providing this training and at what cost? Surely it is Tin Chicken shooting it isn't that complicated is it? We have all been doing it on Sunday mornings for years.

    And meeting rooms. Then strap land onto the side thar can take 300 cars, 200m wide plink and enough room for 150 targets. Then add an area for admin. Maybe room for an few have a go ranges.

    So the pub is closed? The venue needs to be an extra venues as it can't accomodate sufficent space for the plink???

    Maybe add a fully staffed restaurant and bar.

    Why are you paying for a service that is going to make money out of you???

    Then add all the course trimmings, signs, av medical cover, insurance etc

    Not sure on this one but pretty sure NSRA club cover would do, signs cost of a printer and laminater. Maybe St. Johns?

    Then add the expenses for say 25 people to build and run the event over the two weeks.

    Mud Rollers do it for free with maybe a few quid towards rooms

    Sit down with a calculator and work that lot out.

    Pretty sure it ain't close to 10 bags of sand

    If you think we are blowing this on lavish meetings and expenses then we’ve been doing it wrong. So far a few people have been coughing up for their own fuel to travel 100s of miles and spend their days off working on it.

    As most club doers will testify to the World of Tin chickens is full of PANDAS.

    So I think the question is, which bits are other events cutting out?

    From an HFT perspective nothing. Course gets set shooters turn up course gets shot and then taken in usually while the shoot offs are taking place. We go home then repeat.

    I am currently setting up the RSN10 Memorial shoot as I have done for the last 7 years two courses only 50 targets admitedly. Sold out every year cost not a clue boys do it for free. Admit you have got different countries adding to the mix re venues etc.. Set courses at the HFT Worlds for the last 5 years admittedly only 360 shooters but sorry can't get my head around these costs to shoot as enthusiasts Tin Chickens.

    Drunken Monkey.
     
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  18. Yoeri_B

    Yoeri_B Active Member

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    I think the EFTA will welcome your free help for the next coming year. Do let us know in the end what your free help has cost you.

    Kind regards
    Yoeri
     
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  19. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    A 50 shot course is what the BFTA GP series and a lot of FT opens are all year round. Sure you're sorted for volunteer for that and they take no time at all to crash in the grand scheme of things. 140 shooters, about the same amount we as a GP as well. Local event.

    A worlds is 3x the size of that, for 5 days, and additional activities, with 3x the competitors, and guests on top, which club venues and farms can't support. Cripes even events can't keep some car parks passable for a day in rain.

    Different ball game doing it for 5 days, course building for a week beforehand because there isn't a shoot ground near a 600 seater single room venue serving food in one room that has parking for 300 cars should it rain for a day or so. Given the amount of clubs I think we'd know about one if there was.

    You can't get your head around something you're not au fait with, I can't get my head around how it takes two days to shoot 60 targets at the worlds... what on earth are you doing all day?

    Pop along. We'll have full spectator access for free. If you can't see where the money has gone we'll give you your entry price back. :D
     
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  20. simmmo

    simmmo New Member

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    My friend you obviously have no idea who you are talking to or you would not be attaching a cost to our hobby in respect of what we are doing. I have been doing Tin Chicken **** for long enough for free to know exactly whatn it costs the people who are passionate about it, NOTHING BUT THEIR TIME,

    My free help is free no in fact it costs me but I accept that.

    Monkey
     

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