I fear another rule change is on its way......

Discussion in 'Hunter (HFT) & Field Target (FT)' started by Darron, Aug 24, 2018.

  1. NeilM

    NeilM Well-Known Member

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    Interesting was not the word... or contained within the whole sentence, I used.
     
  2. skires

    skires Well-Known Member

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    I presume the targets at major events are all checked before the start? As in checked before they are put up on the course and also checked whilst in situ on the course, for solid fixing, and correct function when the paddle is hit.

    Are they checked again at the end of the shoot. IE ... Do marshalls have a quick wander with checkers and check that no target has become loose and/or isn't function when the paddle hit.

    If those things are done ( especially the end check ) then that's just the same check that they'd get during a 'Call' during the comp. So any 'dodgy' targets can be identified then ... Chief Marshall called to confirm. If a target is found to be dodgy at the end then it's pulled from the comp and any misses awarded as hits to all shooters.

    So how many targets in a major event are called and actually found to be a genuine faulty target and have to be changed?

    If that number is too high ... say several ... then the above idea isn't great as 'several' targets where everyone gets a hit is too many. However, if that number is usually zero or one, then it's not too much of a price to pay, compared with eliminating 'Target Fail Calls' ( so not branches in way etc ) to just say the rule is ... No Calls. Targets are standardised. Targets are checked before and after shoot for fixing and function.

    So it's then simple ... No Calls. If it doesn't go down you just accept that you missed and get on with it. If it's a dodgy target it will be identified at the end Marshall check.

    Or is it too time consuming to wait for a number of Marshalls to go around the course and check 50 targets? What is that time scale compared to the time taken 'during' a comp whilst there are stoppages and Marshalls are making there way on and off courses checking targets ... when most of them will be false calls?

    During comp calls can mean that one target may be called several times and still found to be ok. In an end of comp check that needs only checking once. There may also be targets that no one has called but when the target is checked at the end it is clearly malfunctioning.

    Maybe you have to say that there are no calls for suspected 'splits' IE ... I'm sure I hit the paddle on that one. For obvious issues a Marshall is still called and the target sorted. So for branches in the way etc ... or if a target is clearly seen by a number of people to have a problem ... like the target is hanging off the tree or the paddle has disconnected and the target resets but with just a hole and no paddle etc. It's no point shooters taking a shot at those.

    So just No Calls for shooters that think they have hit the paddle.

    This is all based on ( if ) statistics and history showing that the greatest majority of stoppages are from shooters thinking they've hit on a split and the targets usually found to be ok.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
  3. Darron

    Darron Reformed Bandit

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    I agree 100%. If you are 100% sure you hit the target then call it. I definitely want to see a penalty in place for a false call and I want to see something that works as a deterant not just a punishment. Can I also ask if there was chrono Marshall in Poland? If not then that is also unacceptable at that level.
     
  4. eggie

    eggie Member

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    How do distinguish between a deliberate false call and a geniune one that the shooter is 100% sure they hit? If for example the target passes the checker and works!
     
  5. C.Eaton

    C.Eaton Confirmed Anschutz Nut...

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    You can't, but if the target passes then it's deemed fit for purpose so you lose two targets regardless.
    The main thing is to make calling a target as 'hit' incur a penalty if the target is proved as working correctly.

    Have a look at this great idea:

    https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=OThKaGhvWDdobEhvbmhleldOb1BuTGhQVW9BSE93
     
  6. Welsh Wizard

    Welsh Wizard Hillier has made AA Staff Member

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  7. JerryD

    JerryD Member

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    That's no different to having a bare paddle, as has been discussed previously. It effectively increases the strike zone and the mechanism could be triggered by a splitter. Worse: that could get a full hit and not take the faceplate over - no different to the old Meade targets.

    FT's scoring system is hit or miss - in more ways than one. It does not have the doubt-free purity of an NSRA/ISSF scorecard, or the ability to decide on a "splitter" with an outward scoring or inward scoring gauge. The only other shooting sport that comes close to having the same issue is Clay Pigeon, where a clay may be fractionally nicked by a leading or trailing shot pastern - but clearly, the majority of the pattern missed.

    We only have 1 bit of shot, the pellet. That, and the current target design, can introduce an element of doubt, otherwise known as the splitter. Targets designed and built to a standard, course setting with scrutineering, standard test methods etc. as suggested above will reduce, but not totally eliminate that element of doubt.

    Perhaps a different target design with a 1-5 zone system would be better, splitters then counting in the shooters favour as per the longer NSRA/ISSF disciplines of inward scoring? OK, a pie in the sky idea and I don't have a clue how to come up with an economic target that would do this, but that would address the underlying problem, the element of doubt.

    Food for thought.....
     
  8. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    Biathlon is the similar, targets behind a plate. In this respect the paddle has to cleanly clear behind the plate for it to count. Even with .22 they don't get many splits going their way. And I've never seen a call either :D
     
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  9. dave croucher

    dave croucher ÃŒch bin ein Meister Man

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    Differnt mentality
    Those guys can accept they missed
     
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  10. Darron

    Darron Reformed Bandit

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    dont change the targets - change the cheating mentality
     
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  11. sportsmatch

    sportsmatch Member

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    That’s the coaches job Rob they do sometimes query a target but not often the Kurvinen staff from Finland normally check everything is running smoothly before the competition and between races
    You would see it with diopter sights either
     
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  12. Ewan

    Ewan Ewan

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    That just took an age reading all 10 pages ;-).
    I shoot HFT with our 13 year old son & have done since getting back into the sport over 3 years ago.
    We do as many as the comps as we can at the various clubs, most are to UKAHFT rules with decent targets.
    I have only ever 'called' one target & no it didn't go in my favour but that's the only one I have ever called.
    Me & my lad quickly learned most of the 'called' targets are indeed splits, it nearly always looks like you hit dead centre but you failed to see the initial impact point, your eyes are just not quick enough most of the time I feel, that or I am too old now ;-)

    The last split we both had was Sunday gone, target 27 band on centre but this time left a tell tale yellowy tan mark on the black kill, neither of us called the target but I did ask the 2 shooters behind us t let me know how they faired, same thing, hit centre but didn't drop, next two competitors both got it........goes to show eh !

    I have to admit it gets a little trying when sometimes you have a lot of stoppages in one competition, in fairness to all shooters I do think that they think they hit the kill & the target is at fault but I also feel that more, if they were being honest, kind of know it was a split but will call it anyway. Experience does play a part though to notice the tells.
    I have never seen anyone call a target that went down because they hit the faceplate though ;-)

    Not part of calling but............
    The question of pulling targets because of too many calls has cropped up but I have to disagree. It seems unfair that when half a dozen or so shooters have shot a target, some dropped some missed, it then gets 'pulled' from the comp because it develops a 'fault' in one way or another. All the people who dropped it scored 2 by using their skills then everyone after it gets pulled also gets 2 points. Surely a fairer option is to have a 'back up' target lane near the exit of the course that those people who couldn't shoot the 'pulled' target then now have to shoot ie same kill size same distance & position. I for one would rather shoot the complete set of targets than be awarded points for something I didn't attempt.

    I wish I had the time to shoot FT & HFT ...............:)
    Atb
     
  13. skires

    skires Well-Known Member

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    I actually have. A HFT National many years ago. My group of three were the first on a new target. I shot first and it went down. Reset target and there's a single silver mark on the paddle. I'm marked 2. Second guy shoots and it goes down. Resets and there's a silver mark on faceplate 10mm from kill. He honestly says ... I think I hit the plate ( you could clearly see the hit mark ... close target ). Third guy says ... Well it went down so you get 2. Third guy shoots and it goes down. Reset shows two marks now on the plate. So, to be fair, the two lads who hit the plate agreed that something was wrong and they called a marshall. Marshall was a bit confused and didn't really know what to do. He didn't want to stop the comp for a target that was going down. I said ... Watch ... I've already shot it first and my mark is the one on the paddle ... so if you agree I'll shoot it again now so you don't have to stop the course and I'll deliberately hit it in the head and we'll see if it goes down. Marshall agrees. I put a silver mark on it's head ... and it goes down. Marshall blows his whistle and walks out and checks the target which is faulty. So he fetches a spare target, of the same kill size, and swaps it for the faulty one. He then asks for all three cards ... and crosses out the marks and marks '1' on all three cards and signs them. I said I'm the mark on the paddle ... I got a 2! He replied ... you hit it on it's head ... you get a 1 for a plate. Couldn't argue for laughing.
     
  14. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    I was about to call one in Wales about 3-4 years ago. I took the first shot aiming at a diamond about 1/2 between edge of kill and the edge of plate. It took me across the kill landing about 1/2 way between edge of kill and edge of plate, and fell over. As I was first one the other two had a crack. I think someone else missed it and it stayed up. Another in our group dropped it clean. It was a brand new Nockover. I figured it was a 'congratulations on your new purchase' type thing and went onto the next lane where I missed properly. As far as I know the target worked fine all day.
     
  15. skires

    skires Well-Known Member

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    Chatting to the designers at Nockover, they designed this into each new target. Apparently they found that The Ricochet Reset Syndrome is most likely on that very first shot. So the springs are made such that on the very first shot the plate WILL still fall even if there is a ricochet and will also fall if the plate is hit. After that first shot the spring weakens slightly and any further plate hits will not drop the target.
     

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