HW101 / Airgun Shooter 02.2012

Discussion in 'General Airgun Chat' started by CameronWilson, Jan 10, 2012.

  1. CameronWilson

    CameronWilson Member

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    I've just read in the 02.2012 issue of Airgun Shooter that the Weihrauch HW101 isn't regulated?

    Is this correct?

    I was led to believe that the HW101 was going to be fully regulated like the HW100?
     
  2. Jamesy

    Jamesy Weerach ninja

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    All internals are the same on all models, so yes it is regulated
    This comes up every so often because the HW100 doesn't have what is regarded as a typical regulator as fitted to other PCP's, it has a system of bellville (Spelling might be wrong) washers which do regulate the amount of air for each shot. If the air is measured and regulated then the gun has a reg.:)
     
  3. CameronWilson

    CameronWilson Member

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    Yeah, that's what I thought.

    From the article:

    "And as for charge, what sort of shot-count does a shorty like the HW101 manage per 200BAR fill? Obviously, it's not going to be a lot because this isn't a regulated rifle, and my test gun was supplied in the less-efficient .177 calibre. However, as you can see from the chart (below), it's a bit of a performer. I got over 40, full-power shots between fill-ups, and as for the power curve – well, what curve? All 40-plus were usable, with a 'sweet spot' lasting from start to finish, as on a regged rifle. As an added bonus, there was no gradual slow-down of power at the end of the cycle, either – once it had had enough, the rifle's velocity dropped like a stone within a few shots. It certainly made it obvious to tell when a top-up was needed while I was punching paper.

    For the record, the test gun needed replenishing bang on 90BAR, the point suggested by the colour-coded manometer on the front of the steel air cylinder."


    Surely whether the rifle is regulated or not, is a fairly fundamental thing to get right in review of this nature? It's made all the worse by the reviewer (Nigel Allen) highlighting all the tell-tale signs – the flat power curve, which drops away sharply at the HW100's traditional regulator pressure of 90BAR.

    "Anyway, at least I got the first HW101 test sample in the country – which has meant I've now had plenty of time to get to grips with it."

    I've personally made buying decisions based on reviews that I've read in these magazines – it makes you wonder just how accurate and informative they are? Surely, you would have thought that given that the rifle on the test purported to be a "test sample" it must have come from Weihrauch directly or Hull Cartridge, at that the reviewer would have confirmed the basics with either of those parties? And likewise that the reviewer submitted the review to them for fact-checking before going to press?
     
  4. Tench

    Tench WHFTA World Champion 2016.

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    Which is exactly why i wont buy any of the mags, they either get very basic facts completely wrong or tell you everything is brilliant because they are pandering to their advertisers.


    Simon.
     
  5. Jamesy

    Jamesy Weerach ninja

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    It was the same when the HW100 was first launched, because the gun doesn't have a "Conventional" reg it was sometimes said that it wasn't regulated, it is, and always has been. :)
     
  6. Editor

    Editor New Member

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    As this thread relates to a test carried out and published by me, in my magazine, I would like to add my comments – and, in particular, defend certain ill-informed judgements made by people who should, quite frankly, know better than to criticise a shooting media that helps keep the industry that they make a living from as buoyant as it is.

    Firstly the matter of the ‘regulator ; and in answer to Cameron. Jamesy is quite correct here: like the HW100, Weihrauch s new HW101 is not regulated per se, but does have a valve system that ensures its air delivery is extremely consistent.

    I was the first tester in the UK to receive the HW101, so spent a lot of time with it (as I like to with all my test kit). Compared to the many HW100s I ve fired since I was invited over to Weihrauch s factory in 2003 to assist in the final production thrust of the (then four-year-old) prototype, the HW101 was remarkably consistent over the chrono. Moreso than I ve seen before. This can be seen from power trace I published in my magazine.

    As a result, I asked the official UK importer, Hull Cartridge, whether a regulator had, indeed, now been fitted. The answer? “No. It s exactly as per the HW100.â€

    So, it is a fact stated by the UK's Weihrauch importer that the HW101 (and HW100) do not have an air regulator fitted. A fact. It is, therefore, not wrong of me to say that the gun is not regulated. It isn t!

    However, it is clearly also a fact that these PCPs do feature a valve design – as Jamesy says, a system of washers – which help in the consistent release of air. The design does this extremely well, so much so that some people consider this ‘metered system to be on a par with a regulated PCP.

    But the HW100/1 is no more ‘regulated than, for instance, an ex-factory Air Arms S410; it s just that the HW100/1 s valve release system (for want of a better, collective description) does it with a much greater consistency throughout the usable charge. But it is not an air regulator, per se (or ‘typical regulator , as Jamesy calls it) – simply a very consistent valve system. If you want to describe its washer-system an air regulator, then you ve really got to refer to all PCPs as being ‘regulated as they all release a certain amount of air when the hammer strikes the valve. ‘Air metering system would, perhaps, be a better description.

    So, Cameron, I hope this justifies why I wrote what I did – and I m certainly sorry if I ve in any way confused you (which I don t feel I have). Please afford me the respect of someone who s been involved in the airgun testing business for over 30 years, though; I d like to think that I do, in fact, get the fundamentals things correct!

    Secondly, to address Tench s comment. That is a quite derogatory, extremely ill-informed and highly unprofessional statement to make, especially as you apply it with such a broad brush, Simon. If you don t buy any of the mags, do you actually read them? I suspect not. I shan t answer on behalf of AG and AGW – though I hope Terry Doe also lets his views be known – as I don t publish those titles any more.

    But I don t believe you can read Airgun Shooter; if you did, you d understand that it has the following it has for the very reason that it is so credible, unbiased and accurate in its reportage. As many who know me well will tell you, that was exactly the reason why I agreed to launch Airgun Shooter with Blaze Publishing in the first place. And I have assembled a team who do not get very basic facts incorrect – not least because I check everything myself personally, anyway.

    Furthermore, I - as would the publishing company (which prides itself on the independence of its publications) - take extreme umbrage to your statement that the title panders to the advertisers needs, Simon. I don t remember agreeing to some advertisers requests to not give your services three pages of editorial coverage (completely unlinked to advertising space, let s not forget) in the magazine a year or so ago. In fact, I distinctly remember saying it was none of their business!

    So please don t jump on the ‘let s knock the airgun press bandwagon that so many forums seem to love doing. Speaking as someone who s been in this industry for much longer than you, you need to understand that the press is crucial to the industry which gives you your daily bread – and those of us heavily involved with your sport's media are very experienced airgunners as well as journalists, and we take our roles extremely seriously. I certainly do, as everyone who knows me will attest to.

    Nige
     
  7. CameronWilson

    CameronWilson Member

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    Fair play to you Nigel, for your response.

    1.
    I'm still a bit confused as to what constitutes a 'proper' regulator. I'm a tinkerer rather than an informed expert, and I'm the first to admit that how I think things work, and how they actually work, can often be wildly different. But here's where I'm coming from...

    The Steyr LG100/110 is widely regarded as being fully regulated, and a disassembled regulator consists of:

    • the regulator body itself
    • a couple of O-rings
    • eight belleville washers ()()()()
    • a piston
    • pre-load set screw

    The Steyr regulator supplies ~90BAR to the action so long as the cylinder has >90BAR in it. Once the cylinder drops below 90BAR, the power of the shots drop away rapidly. Time for a refill.

    Opening up an HW100, reveals that it also has:

    • a couple of O-rings
    • 16 belleville washers (())(())(())(())
    • a piston
    • pre-load set screw.

    Again, the Weihrauch system supplies ~90BAR to the action so long as the cylinder has >90BAR in it. Once the cylinder drops below 90BAR, the power of the shots drop away rapidly. Again time for a refill.

    Both designs can have their pressure adjusted via the pre-load set screw and a job-specific manometer. The only difference I can see (to the untrained eye), is that whilst the Steyr's regulator is a self-contained unit, the Weihrauch has the various components installed directly into the front half of the action. Is it a case that regulation system can only be referred to as a 'regulator' when the various components are installed in a self-contained assembly, which can be swapped out as a complete unit? Or are the two designs entirely different in the way they operate? Or is the Steyr design not really a 'proper' regulator either?

    2.
    I've had problems with HW100s in the past, where the two halves of the action can move slightly in relation to each other over a period of time (perhaps 1,000 pellets as a ballpark figure). The first symptom is that the 14-shot magazines become difficult to insert, because the space between the two halves has closed slightly. Because the front telescopic mount is attached to the front half of the action (along with the barrel) and the rear mount is attached to the rear half of the action, what you end up with is an unstable foundation for the scope. This can be easily solved by installing a one-piece mount, which effectively braces the two halves of the action and generally keeps everything from moving around.

    The design of the HW101's pellet loading channel, obviously makes the installation of a one-piece mount difficult. In your experience does the increased surface contact area between the front and rear halves of the HW101 design, provide a stable enough foundation for two-piece mounts? I'm guessing there is no space to close-up anymore, but it appears as though the HW101 design uses the same two machine screws to hold the two halves of the action together, so potentially the possibility of the two halves twisting in relation to each may still exist?

    Have you experienced any problems?

    3.
    The next time you're speaking to Weihrauch, please encourage them to produce versions of the HW10x rifles with adjustable cheekpieces? Likewise, I'm sure synthetic stocked versions would be well received as well!

    Cheers,

    Cam.
     
  8. Jamesy

    Jamesy Weerach ninja

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    Good luck with that one!:D A synthetic stock could be a possibility,;) but adjustable cheekpieces?
    Everytime i've met Hans, and Stefan, i've asked them to make the forend on the spring guns slightly deeper to help with positional shots, nothing too drastic, just to the level of the trigger guard. No such luck as yet, although i think my showing them my own customstocked HW97K may have contributed to the release of the HW97KT.
    Weihrauch know their market very well and their sales, popularity and the respect for quality the company has backs that up. If they felt that FT guns and adjustable stocks would increase these things they would no doubt produce them.:)
    Nigel, i still regard the HW100 as regulated though.:D The valve system does regulate the air, whereas a knock open valve does not, so i'll call it a regulator.:D
     
  9. Editor

    Editor New Member

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    Cam - re. the 'reg'. I think you're absolutely right about what constitutes a 'proper' reg... and I'm kind of with Jamesy and you on this one that it's a metering system of sorts. As Jamesy quite correctly points out, it is a little unfair to compare it with a simple knock-open valve, because the HW system is so much more consistent... although I also think it a little unfair to compare the HW system with that of, for instance, the EV2 and Dave Welham's units. They are regulators (IMHO), but I'm not sure I'd want to dub the HW's design as such! Why don't we say that the HW100/1 isn't regulated, but uses an air metering design that is as effective as a conventional regulator? (A bit like I always refer to the Daystate Air Wolf's action as a 'kind of digital air regulator'.)

    And, of course, how could I print in my article that the HW101 is regulated... when Hull clearly told me it wasn't!

    On the subject of the breech movement, Cam, I confess I've not experienced this myself... but then I've never owned one of these models, so only have limited experience to draw on; typically, I'll be using a test rifle over a period of two or three months - and as it's not my own rifle, I don't get to know it to the 'nth' degree like I would my own. That said, I do know someone - a big HW100 fan, actually - who has owned lots of them and has pointed a suspicious finger toward this area on a couple of them. When you consider the two-part-breech design, it's certainly a plausible explanation - and while a one-piece mount may be the answer, I wouldn't like to rely on it being the belt and braces of my rifle's accuracy!

    Next time I talk to Hans, I'll mention this. It could be one of those 'potential' problems (by way of design) like the HW35 has, viz if the solder doesn't flow all the way around the breech plug (the jaws/transfer port), you end up with a rifle that's uncharacteristically low-powered because of the air leakage into the empty solder channels.

    As you probably know, Mssrs Weihrauch are very set in their ways (!), but I think an adjustable cheek-piece is something they'd certainly consider on an HW100/1. Like everything, it all comes down to cost, and they are very conscious that the UK market is very price-point conscious, particularly at the moment. They usually try a 'limited run' to see how things go. Mind you, the success of the (cheaper) HW97K-T Synthetic certainly bodes well for us seeing a synthetically-stocked PCP from them in the not-too-distant future... but I didn't tell you that. ;)

    Nige
     
  10. Editor

    Editor New Member

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    CORRECTION: I should have mentioned the HW35's 'solder' problem referred to in my previous post in the past tense; it had such a problem. I believe it has been addressed for a number of years now - decades, in fact. I'm rather showing my age when I remember such things!
     
  11. Tench

    Tench WHFTA World Champion 2016.

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    Hi Nige, yes i am sorry i put it like that, just blurted it out without thinking. but it doesnt change the fact that you are very wrong about the HW reg.

    Simon.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2012
  12. Adam

    Adam Well-Known Member

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    Regulator: "a valve for regulating the pressure of flowing gas or liquid to maintain a predetermined pressure". [dictionary.reference.com]

    So the rifle has an arrangement of piston, o-rings and belleville washers which maintains a constant pressure in the air space between the firing valve and the main air cylinder. This has the effect of removing the power curve typical of unregulated rifles and makes the rifle behave exactly like... a regulated rifle!

    If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...! :rolleyes:
     
  13. LANKY MK

    LANKY MK this **** is killing me.

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    So going from what ive read so far in this thread, the HW pcp is not regged because it does not have a proper reg, which is seen as a self contained unit ie: like the Steyr reg.

    Even in this case the air in the HW is still being regulated by the 'non-self contained unit', hence its a regulated rifle (as cam has pointed out it works in the same way as the steyr reg). the fact the parts that regulate the air are not in a self contained unit has no baring on whether the rifle is regulated.

    As far as calling it a metering system of sorts, all reg's are a metering system of sort's.


    Mark
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2012
  14. merc350

    merc350 Just wants to shoot...

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    "to reg or not to reg..that is the question":D
     
  15. Artfull-Bodger

    Artfull-Bodger Member

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    The HW100 is definatly regulated, if you want to set these rifles up after service or repair you adjust the Regulator to read 90bar on a seperate external gauge(that you have to aquire or make yourself) which you screw into a port in the bottom of the front half of the two piece breech block, then adjust the power output on the hammer preload!
    pressure is held at 90bar in the firing assy by the reg and you can hear the reg repressurising on some rifles, so I dont know what else constitutes a regulator?

    on a side note, if your HW100 two piece block is able to move thats either a miracle or somethings broken, I heard this rumour a while back and checked both my HW100s and K and two other rifles I was servicing at the time, the two halves are held together by two 6mm allen bolts mating a machined step faced joint together, to move you would have to damage the step face, and the amount of force required to do that would be considerable!
     
  16. CameronWilson

    CameronWilson Member

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    Aye, it's not a big amount of movement right enough, and it's not as though it rattles, more a case of the two halves slowing closing in over time.

    It's not caused by a single blow, but rather by creep over (I'd estimate) a couple of tins of pellets (1,000 shots). You can't see it with the naked eye, and the only real giveaway is the fact that a magazine which used to slip in easily, will require a bit of effort to seat. It generally starts with only one of the two magazines, and then after a while neither will seat at all.

    I guess it's quite similar to scope creep in many respects – the scope feels solid and won't budge, but over a number of shots it'll creep out of its original position.

    I've got a set of digital calipers now, so I'll be able to check and see that I'm not going mad. If I get peace and quiet to do my own thing at the outdoor range, I can easily burn through 500 pellets in a single visit, so it shouldn't take too long to double check my suspicions!
     
  17. Editor

    Editor New Member

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    Apology accepted.

    And I've got to concede to the general consensus of opinion here that the HW is 'regulated', too. Obviously, I never meant to mislead anyone when I stated (confirmed by the importers, to boot) that it wasn't. I guess I - and them perhaps? - consider a 'regulator' to be a self-contained unit; many others (certainly those entering this debate) don't!

    It is certainly 'metered' - and going by Adam's very reasoned dictionary consultation (and what journalist would ever argue with that!!!), I stand corrected. :eek:

    Nige
     
  18. ruipereira

    ruipereira New Member

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    A few years ago, when i've bought my HW100 (in 2006). I've sent an e-mail to Weihrauch asking them if the HW100 was regulated.
    The answer that i've received stated that the HW100 is regulated. I also was informed that the hw100 regulator has a different design that is not conventional.
    I remenber that a few weeks later someone posted a series of X-ray pictures of the HW100 action where the regulator was cleary seen.
     
  19. Mog

    Mog New Member

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    Perhaps 'is regulated' but doesn't have a 'regulator' would be the way to go? :D
     
  20. LANKY MK

    LANKY MK this **** is killing me.

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    :) i think that's were the confusion come's from.

    If you define a regulated gun by it having a regulator, then define the regulator as a self contained unit, then your going to have problem with guns that have regulators that are not self contained unit's. What if Steyr decided to make the reg part of the internal frame for the next rifle, they use the same part's they used in the steyr lg110 reg ie:bellville washer's ect but put them in a chamber built into the internal frame where the cylinder screw's on, it still regulates the air but its no longer a self contained unit therefore it not a regulator which in turns mean it's not regulated.

    For me thats poor logic, a regulated gun should be simply defined by whether the air from the cylinder is regulated, in the case of the HW it has a "chamber" (filled with special bit's :)) after the cylinder which regulate's the air from the cylinder, hence the rifle is regulated, it does not matter whether that "chamber" is self contained unit or not, heck it doesnt matter what its called, all that count's is whether or not the air is regulated.

    EDIT: With regards to defining a regulator, i wont go into specific's but would say you can have a reg that's a 'self contained unit' like with a steyr and you can have a reg that's 'built into the rifle' like with the HW.

    That's my ten pence worth but im just an idiot so what do i know :)


    Mark
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2012

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