FT Scope...for poor people

Discussion in 'Hunter (HFT) & Field Target (FT)' started by pjp61, Mar 26, 2015.

  1. Conor

    Conor Never been banned from sales Staff Member

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    Honestly no disrespect to anyone involved but if it took them 12months to master rangefinding with a big Nikko they are in the wrong sport.
     
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  2. bootneckbob

    bootneckbob Active Member

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    I think the part about judging the wind and releasing the shot well is the far more important part of the equation; and yes the rangefinding part would be easier to master. Could they all tell the difference between 51 and 49, I doubt it, so that's where the wind and shot release will be crucial.

    Oh and back to the OP, Falcon T50 mk2 for me or a friends Big niko preferably with his receipt just in case! The Niko is better at ranging true, but if it goes tits up, and they do, you will have nothing and no budget to buy anything else.
     
  3. Darron

    Darron Dwarf Slayer

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    yes providing it was a decent Nikko.
     
  4. skires

    skires Well-Known Member

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    Okay so that was a loaded question.

    Some well respected FT guys commented there.

    We are basically saying that if you spend 700 quid on a Big Nikko or 400 quid on a second hand one ( or better ) then that's your range finding sorted. Use anything less and you are at a disadvantage.

    So most people are using a Big Nikko or better.

    So what's the point? You may as well tell everyone the ranges and save everyone a load of time ( Bob ... you went and spoiled it with your comment that some may not be able to tell the difference between 49 and 51 ... thus making wind estimation, hold and shot release more critical :D). It's not difficult to understand why we then get newcomers commenting ...

     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
  5. LUDJEV77

    LUDJEV77 Member

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    The theme is "cheap optics for FT".
    "I'm not so rich to buy cheap"-I think this phrase is English .Marin why you want a cheap scope?To injure your head and eyes after 30 minutes, maybe?
    Or first have to be disappointed by "cheap" and then buy "dear"?
    buy the "expensive"?The Bulgarian shooters shoot with the same equipment as the English(you will see it in April;)).If you do not believe us, please believe them:).
    I write this post because I have MTC 8-32;Nikko mk1 and Nikko mk3.The new season will use MK1,not because it is cheaper.
    When I fluctuate between 49 and 51,I'm shooting at 50:D
    Cheers
     
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  6. Adam

    Adam Active Member

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    @skires it's part of the sport and has been for at a guess 30 years now, so for better or worse it’s part of the essence of FT.

    People discovered that higher mag scopes allowed range finding using parallax focus, which was allowed in the rules, so they had an advantage over those that didn’t. And so it went on. If focus rangefinding had been banned, it would have become a different sport and it’s quite possible HFT wouldn’t now exist.

    Nowadays yes, a Nikko allows a new competitor after a short learning curve to rangefind well enough to get to a competitive baseline. From there of course they need to learn the wind, how their rig performs in different conditions etc. However they still aren’t going to be quite as good at rangefinding as the top guys who will have a slightly wider margin for wind error across the full diameter of the kill. The experience helps with learning how the scope may shift, and how best to rangefind more difficult targets, such as under bushes in deep shadow.

    Above that baseline people may want to get a different scope, if they have the budget and it gives them an edge... or they perceive it gives them an edge. Or maybe they just want to try something different.

    Electronic rangefinders aren’t foolproof and up to 55 yards most aren’t actually as reliably precise as a good scope.
     
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  7. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    No we are not saying that ;) . We're saying after a year with a Nikko, assuming it's as it should be, you should be hitting targets. Other scopes that cost less are capable of doing that as well.

    The problem with scopes is that some think it's a tool that doesn't require a skill to be learnt and applied. That's not the case, even with the most expensive scopes. An analogy I can think of is it's like saying a Ferrari F50 will get you around a track faster than a 1.6L Ford Focus, but you need to know how to drive it or else you can still be thrashed on that track by an original Fiat 500.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
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  8. skires

    skires Well-Known Member

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    Adam.

    I know. I saw Custom Shops at FT clubs back in the mid 90's.
     
  9. skires

    skires Well-Known Member

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    Rob

    I was quite specific in the question. Sorry about the Royal "We".;)

    Your comment related to a scope being a tool and a skill has to be learned to use it etc. ... That's why I was quite specific in my question and asked if 10 or 20 intelligent people were given Big Nikkos would they be able to range targets in the 45 to 55 yard area to within a couple of yards or accurately enough to take the target down if they judged wind and released the shot well. The answer was 'Yes'.

    One could say that with any equipment the user has to learn how to get the best out of it and that the best users will probably find a way to get a tad more ... triggers, hamsters etc.

    I'm not sure the Ferrari Vs Ford Focus is a fair analogy. That's going to need some driving and racing skill. Similar to holding steady on aim and releasing the shot with good breathing, trigger technique and follow through. So 'we' may not be able to get those 10 or 20 intelligent folk driving a racing car fast around a track, but we could probably get them all setting the internal climate control up properly on a luxury motor.

    So a more accurate answer is ... that not everyone will be able to use a decent FT scope like a Big Nikko to range as accurately as each other ... and skill is still required to be learned to get the best out of the scope in a number of different conditions such that finer, more accurate, range estimates will result in more kills in combination with high standards of wind estimation and shot release?

    ( So basically what Bob ... and Adam ... said ).
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
  10. Adam

    Adam Active Member

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    I know you know. The comment was more for other readers. At my club in the early 90s it was the Bushnell Banner 6-18 and then 6-24 Tasco scopes which started people on that. Before then the biggest was typically a 3-9x40
     
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  11. maddog

    maddog Active Member

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    Why not shoot s f t and keep saveing until you can afford a better scope
     
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  12. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    I won my region's winter league with one mid late 2000's :)
     
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  13. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    Sure, everyone is not equal. But the average shooter given an average Nikko should be hitting average scores after a season or so. The problem is that people pick up guns and scopes and think it stops there and if the scores don't come then you need better kit to solve the issue. That's probably a bit of a flippant simplification but it's not actually that far off the car analogy... if you get someone who really knows what they are doing in a much lower spec car then they will run rings around higher spec vehicles, and that's if the high end one can be kept on the track in the first place which isn't a given.

    You can then add the idea that after X time you should be winning X grade or X comp. I suspect everyone has thought that, the same as those doing track days or local circuits, but they soon learn their limitations. Because we don't end up in the kitty litter we are slower to pick that up. We also don't get to see the 'lines' top shooters take, because it's all happening through their scope.

    The scope is only going to rangefind so it's limited in that respect to gaining points. It's not the kit that's the issue. It's how it's used. Shown how then there's far less issues than people suspect. But unless you know how to do something you're probably going to be even more lost when things don't behave as expected. What is also required ,as you point out, is wind reading and all the other elements that make a good shot and the field skills which go with the kit.

    The most expensive scope I know is the march 80. Even if you have money to burn I wouldn't recommend one for a new starter. Not because I want them to be held back, but because the disappointment hit when a new shooters doesn't light the course up after spending 1000's isn't an unusual motivation for them to then disappear. Even with a couple of years under their belt the knock can be brutal. Same goes with guns. Picking up esoteric conversions which may not be the most consistent kid on the block isn't going to help matters.

    We're lucky in that with top gear in hand we can still take a shot. Going back to the car analogy, if you put on a set of slicks and can't drive a circuit to keep them warm, they'll go cold, turn to something with the grip of hard nylon trolley wheels on ice, and you'll be off. So while we're not into that scenario it's not as simple as saying you can bolt on the best gear and use it to its potential.

    We can all dream about the best gear money can buy etc. However the reality is that unless you know how to use it, even though it has the potential to win, that's all the owner will have, the potential. The hard part isn't always buying that potential (although it can be), it's fulfilling it.
     
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  14. Conor

    Conor Never been banned from sales Staff Member

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    My only real quibble with this experiment is actually finding 10, never mind 20, intelligent people involved in FT! :D:D
     
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  15. scandalo

    scandalo New Member

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    +1
    I really do not understand ppls that spend 2k for a rifle and want to get a scope for 100€. I'm sure that many ppl already try that, but this is the hard way after all they go for a new scope again.
    As Lavant said there are no short cut. If you want to shoot real FT get the right equipment and then you will be in love of this hobby.
     
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  16. skires

    skires Well-Known Member

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    I totally understand that you can't just buy the best kit and get best results. I'm always telling people to avoid that trap.

    So I always understood that you can't buy a top end target rifle with a quality barrel and match trigger etc and start knocking all the targets down. That's going to take lots of work to try and achieve that skill level.

    Scopes ... I never saw the same amount of shooting skill involved in working out how to range with, and label up, a high mag scope. As long as you have half a brain you can do it. So it was a genuine question that if everyone is using a Big Nikko ( or better ) and that allows everyone to range within a couple of yards at 55 yards, then what is the point in all that money, and time during comps, when everyone is pretty much on an even playing field?

    The justification is that people will say ( have said ) that there is still skill to be learned so that you can read the odd target more accurately in variable conditions.

    The original question ( OP Title ) was ... FT Scope ... For poor people.

    As can be seen in many responses in this thread ( and virtually all others like it ) people are always told to don't bother buying anything below something like a Big Nikko. Buy s/h if you have to ( £400 ). So it's almost like saying "If you want to play at FT and want to move up to a level over a reasonable period ... you need 400 quid for just the scope (s/h)".

    That probably always has put a number of newcomers off and probably sent others down the road to the HFT club ( since 2001/2 ).

    Pointless comments I know, because FT isn't going back to using 3-9 scopes. I suppose, like Adam's comment, it's maybe useful that newcomers asking themselves the same questions can read this and see some explanation on skills required to use the big scopes.
     
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  17. mrgeoff

    mrgeoff Active Member

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    I have come into this sport with a couple of friends recently, one is doing exceptional well with a mega cheap 24x Nikko and I am quite enjoying using an old front PX 24x Bushnell.

    They seem good enough to now have to learn the wind, as it’s stated above, the scope will only get you so far!
     
  18. Conor

    Conor Never been banned from sales Staff Member

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    There’s a guy down the club. Cracking shot.
    Used a s400 2nd hand, £400 with a Simmons 44 mag 6.5-24x44 scope 2nd hand which he picked up for £80.
    He can’t afford an air bottle so just gets a free fill of one of the members.
    He’s marked up the front parallax with the yards and he’s done the turrets.
    He enjoys the craic and hits low to mid 20’s ex 40 on club courses.
    He’s happy and enjoys the challenge.
    No reason you can’t rangefind by eye either and use holdover if your scope don’t have target turrets. There’s no minimum price requirement on equipment, it’s down to what you want to achieve and how you enjoy your Sunday sending lead at a tin chicken.

    After all there’s guys using March, Leupold and Nightforce scopes to hit targets in 9 mag at an average distance of 28yrds in HFT.
     
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  19. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    The Big Nikko is the usual suspect for a number of reasons. Firstly it's one of the few scopes that has been in production all this time, from it's BSA incarnation now to the one we have now. Whilst that's lead to variations over time it has meant there's a lot around. There's also some servicing knowledge on them and some backup. The average quality is known on average, which means it's a common referral. It was also one of the only few off the shelf big mag scopes. When I bought my March perhaps over 10 years ago it was the only other big mag zoom scope off the shelf sold through a uk distro chain that didn't need any specialist adaptation that could focus 10-55 in one go.

    There are other scopes that will do the job, that can cost less depending on where you look that will do the job as well the Deben and Tasco Custom shops for example. But they are less common so have less of a following and they have long ceased production.

    There's less expensive scopes than those which will allow you to compete. In my first year I had a 32x nikko nighteater and didn't come last, nor did my shooting partner who had the same. I can't remember if it was 1 or 2 years before I moved on from that.

    The reality is that for FT, if you want the ease of dialling, you need to have a high mag, large objective scope, and these aren't cheap to make. If you do find a cheaper scope the likelyhood is that the lenses won't be as good and there'll be other shortcuts.

    The thing is, £400 in the grand equation of a rig and shooting an event isn't much of a difference over HFT. The scopes get mentioned but the reality is that there's a whole host of other things that people buy to go shooting. It's probably an uplift of around 10% over that, all things weighed up, perhaps even less. If you look at the WHFTA kit list, although it doesn't list scopes, it's probably about 97% that are using PCP guns costing in the £1000+ arena off the shelf. I know that's the worlds, but it's field is similar to say the GP series in FT.

    I think there's a temptation to look at numbers, but it depends how you are picking them. What we can say is that FT has the largest world championships (by a long way) with the most amount of countries participating (by a long way) so we could say that if it was true that HFT is a cheaper starting point (which is debatable) then is it holding it back from developing?. I think the answer is no, and that all sports aren't the same, but if you spend the time you can still have fun and overtake people in whatever you bring or borrow to shoot the event. There's a tendency these days to ask what is the best, to want to know what someone is intending to do is the best route, the best sport, the best value for money etc, all before they do the sport. That only works on the internet, I don't think you can compare XYZ in shooting without going out and trying it. It's one of the reasons that in my earlier years I shot FT, HFT, 10m, Bell target, and hunted. I've ended up mostly shooting FT not because it's the cheapest or most expensive, but because I enjoy it the most. I think given the time and costs of everything I've spent on all that, the scopes are a drop in the ocean.
     
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  20. Ratinator

    Ratinator 77.74

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    You could always opt to shoot second and use what you see your partners ranging at !!

    Didn’t Nigel Mansell reportedly catch a performance car once in his mini metro squad car ?
     

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