Faulty Targets.... discuss

Discussion in 'Hunter (HFT) & Field Target (FT)' started by Bellerophon, May 20, 2014.

  1. Bellerophon

    Bellerophon Active Member

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    Right lets get something straight, this thread is meant to be about discussion, at any point that it starts to turn sour I'll ask for it be removed, so play nice please.

    Ok basically I find it very hard to believe that targets fail on a consistent basis, by that I mean nearly every shoot I go to a target is pulled, it is now the norm to shoot a course and have a target pulled. I have been on the positive receiving end of targets been pulled in the past.

    Granted there are occasions where say target hasn't been fixed down sufficiently or at the correct angle (leaning forward) or even a linkage failing but what about all the other times, I just don't buy it. I'd also like to add there is a few occasions where targets are not in line with rules (correct distances for kill zones etc.) so understandably they have to be pulled which is fair enough.

    But I genuinely don't understand how a simple knockover target can just go faulty, I've been involved in course setting and shooting for nearly 10 years now and there has been two occasions in that time where a target has genuinely been knackered or faulty, one was a 15mm sparrow target and the other was one at Kibworth that didn't even make it out on the course, that is it.

    I'd also like to add there is the occasional time where I've gone to check a target and there has been a build up of lead deposit that needed clearing but after a quick dig out and re-test with a checker it was back up and running (it's usually 15mm kills that are guilty of this).

    I'd also like to add that a few years ago there was literally no targets ever pulled, so what's changed, if anything knowledge of targets and target maintenance has increased, I do understand that our sport is getting far more competitive (which is a good thing in a lot of respects) and that can contribute to targets being called etc.

    So in your experiences why do they fail? I do find it hard to believe that well maintained, well fixed, well angled targets will fail in the space of 200 shots, this isn't based on non hands on experience, like I mentioned before I've been doing this a while now so I'm very interested to see other views.

    discuss....
     
  2. chris.allum

    chris.allum Member

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    perhaps over your ten years...clubs just havent bought that many new targets , and they're all just showing their age ???? like you say it could just be lack of maintenance over the ten years you've set things up ??
     
  3. tugg

    tugg itchy trigger finger

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    I shot a target yesterday at our club that didn't go down ,it was a 45yd rat . If it was a comp I would of just thought I missed it but after shooting it again and still not going down I went out and checked it and it was stiff but it seemed to work intermittantly .this target like most of ours are out permanently so are exposed to the elements so is understandable that they will fail now and again.
    You also get targets that fall down when hitting the faceplate ,funny enough they don't get pulled.
     
  4. chrisc

    chrisc Lucky git

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    I said this at the weekend K. I shot the Classic at Emley which was 2 x 40 shot courses. Not a single target pulled and maybe 4 stoppages all weekend down to the odd broken string.

    So, that's 100+ of the best FT shots in the country (and international) seeing pellet strikes at 55yards on high mag and not calling a target.:confused:

    And yet we have HFT shooters on 10 mag, 45 yards, parallax at 25 yards (ish) saying they see the pellet strike the centre of the kill......really?????

    I can understand if a target is at an incorrect range/kill size, for example a 15mm kill at 11 yards, then yes, it should be pulled but the domino effect we saw at Fort with the same target being called, even after being check by the chief marshal, was a :(joke.
     
  5. blue dragon

    blue dragon Member

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    After the weekend we had 2 targets pulled one was a distance issues which was fair enough the other was a 15 mil which in the first session was replaced as it had a hole in it the replaced target was then pulled in the afternoon for the same reason a hole in it , I know that on small kill size you are going to get a localised area of hits when looking at the targets they did not seem to be that old ,All I can think that over the last couple of years targets are being made with steel which is of a lower grade I am sure that I will be told by many that this is not so but it does make you think,
    regards Steve
     
  6. Tench

    Tench WHFTA World Champion 2016.

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    A target that is in good order and lubricated should function as intended for many years. I sometimes wonder whether a large kill struck at the extreme 3 or 9 oclock position could "twist" the paddle, applying all the force on one side which could jam the pivot. The pivot would of course need to be dry and probably also rusty for this to happen.
     
  7. rich

    rich Active Member

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    Our club has been running since 2003 and we have a 40 shot FT course and a 40 shot HFT course permanently laid out in all weathers, plus a substantial number of "fun" targets, knock down and reset with no strings.

    About half the targets are Knockovers, another quarter maybe are Gamo, a very few Umarex, and 20 or more home made to our own design.

    What failures have we had? One of the Umarex ones had a weld go completely. The Gamo ones fall over too far, so when the reset cord is pulled, most of the tension goes into pulling the target towards you rather than lifting the faceplate on its hinge. It's a very easy problem to fix and we have added limiters to all of them so they can't fall past 45 degrees. Now the strings don't break and the chain links don't open out.

    We've also taken out the mild steel clevis pins on the Gamos and Umarexes and replaced them with A2 stainless screws and locknuts.

    Personally I like the older design of Knockover the best, the one with the bent S link, not the parallel bars like the Gamos have.

    Our home made targets are very rugged. We have had one weld go, where a bush broke away from the back of the faceplate. When we made them we didn't plan well enough for maintenance so they have been altered as time has gone on to make them easier to strip and overhaul.

    Of course if the target is fixed to a dodgy post then it may tip or the entire post give way, and we have had a few occurrences like that, but that is hardly the fault of the target.

    We tend to keep our animaloid shape targets with full size kills and use our plain round knockovers for close range mini kills. This has led to the minis getting a concentration of hits in the centre of the paddle and some of them are now distorted and will soon need new paddles, or a dressing with a big hammer. Not bad after ten or more years.

    Our normal preventive maintenance is a thorough brushing with chassis grease on the moving parts, twice a year.
     
  8. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    The only thing I've come across apart from obvious failures is the main pivot bolt being done up too tight... it can rotate on each reset and sometimes there's a tight point which can then find the target refusing to drop. Resetting up and down an few times can rotate the bolt and it's free, only to bind again when the bolt rotates to the tight spot.

    Apart from that, snagged strings catching on the ground or foliage, are the only times i've seen a target 'fail' when positioned correctly.
     
  9. Fatsnapper

    Fatsnapper experiendum durius

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    Sometimes, and this happened to me at FORT over the weekend, you shoot a target and you feel that the shot was good but you do actually miss the kill zone, but you observe the paddle wobble or twitch. This I think is one of the reasons there are stoppages as people assume there is something wrong with the target.

    I didn't ask for it to be checked, I just presume my shot wasn't good, especially as it was a fair way out and I can't often see where it hits, especially as it was at the edge of that hillside in a channel with those bizarre wind effects!!
     
  10. Gary Martin

    Gary Martin sultans of spring

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    target fails

    i have a Gamo target for practice. i have had 1fail. its brand new so i could see the paint removal on the paddle.
    i suspect the fail is due to the clearance between the pivot pin/hole. as the next shot sent it down. there has to be clearance, and if the two parts were out of line and jammed against each other its possible it will not fall.
    all i can say is the quality of the Gamo targets is ok for plinking/practice, but not to comp std. anything mechanical will fail but quality is seen as being fit for purpose. the better quality the minimum of fails. if left to weather, oxidation, frozen water lack of lubrication will take their toll. maintenance is required on a more frequent basis.
     
  11. HotShot

    HotShot Active Member

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    I have shot FT for years at clubs all around the country. I cannot remember a target getting pulled in the last 4 years (if at all for being faulty).

    We had to change one at a GP (at Redfearns) that had been sprained by the mid session painter pulling down on the paddle to get up to it. That failed on the first shot and was tested with the target tester and replaced.

    Dave.
     
  12. Yorkshiretea

    Yorkshiretea B Grade Bandit

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    Not been involved long but only seen one replaced at Redfearns, back paddle had bust on weld during Champs.
     
  13. holly

    holly Well-Known Member

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    Targets

    On the permanent targets . IE club targets that are left out . we found it best to leave em down after being shot . that way the rain did not get to the moving parts as badly . oh and of course the monthly work partys . ??? HOLLY:)
     
  14. Bellerophon

    Bellerophon Active Member

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    With regards to HFT I honestly think a lot of it is that shooters see the actual faceplate rattle causing the illusion the kill zone has been struck and due to the low magnifications used in comparison to our FT counterparts we don't actually see the target that clearly and we are unable (in the latter stages of a course) to clearly identify our strike marks.

    I'd like to remind people that by it's very nature HFT shooting is a compromise and most people compromise with their scope settings, by that I mean they parallax at say 23y and shoot on x10 allowing them to see 13y to about 35y relatively crisp, there after the blur increases and the "crispness" is lost increasingly. In fact it is well documented that people use the amount of blur on their scopes to aid range finding by using this method.

    Now by bearing the above in mind unless you have some excellent glass and a high parallax setting you will NOT see a target at 38y plus with a very good degree of clarity which would allow you to track your hits with a good degree of accuracy on a shot up target. So I cannot understand how shooters can see their hits consistently when using the first set of hypothetical settings mentioned. That's before even taking into account light and atmospheric conditions.

    It is possible to track a pellet in flight for a about 25 percent of it's journey on the longer targets (40y onwards) but below that you may get a flash of pellet in the right light conditions out to about 35y but that's it, below that you are not tracking squat. So for the shorter shots it is virtually impossible to track a pellet in flight and on a shot up kill to ACCURATLEY see your hit i'd say is nigh on impossible on your closer shots, your brain simply does not work that fast.

    Before anyone says i'm calling my fellow shooters liars etc. I'm not I just honestly believe that a lot of people don't understand the principles involved and therefore due to movement of the faceplate, lead flashing across a kill etc. and your brain not being able to process the information quick enough or correctly leads people to think "I got that", when actually you didn't, physics and biology has tricked you :D

    discuss some more....
     
  15. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    It's very easy to clip an edge and see a splash in a kill even with a perfectly focused ft scope and think its a hit. I've been fooled by that thinking that wind has taken me across when it's in fact barely moved. At the weekend I missed 8. I think I failed to see 4 of them land despite them being in focus. And there were plenty I didn't see strike the kill even though the target fell. I'd say I'm more inclined to see a miss than a hit. Sometimes conditions allow me to see most of my shots hits or misses but there are days when I don't see that many.
     
  16. Knockedover

    Knockedover CSFTA Champ

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    This is my 21st year competing and in the last 10yrs there are certainly more "HFT divas" about. I believe their delusional state effects their vision and overcomes the obvious LOFT* leading to more called targets.

    Discuss :D


    * LOFT....Lack Of F*****g Talent :D
     
  17. simona

    simona Active Member

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    I've shot FT on and off since 1988. I've never knowingly hit the kz and not seen the target fall. On one occasion I placed an apparent hit in the centre of the kz with my first shot on a course and it didn't fall. I called a cease fire, went out and there was a tiny silver streak on the edge of the faceplace at 6 o'clock; I was wrong.

    I've definately had at least 1 target fall in response to a miss. I have no plans to ever call a target again.
     
  18. Conor

    Conor Never been banned from sales Staff Member

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    For what its worth the newest double link knockover target mechanism, not the older type 'S', are far more unforgiving to splits. Ive seen 70% of a split hit the paddle and mark centre and the target not go down. The paddle even moves but it doesn't drop.

    My knockover has been permanently outside since 2003 on the same fence post and it NEVER has failed. It gets a service once a year and the occassional spray of oil. It has taken a fair few tins of lead in it's time!

    Targets that are close range especially reducer style targets need a bit more maintainance, I did see a reducer target that had a paddle that had been shot out with a tiny hole in the middle. This shouldnt been the case, a paddle from knockover is only a few quid to replace.

    The front spring is something that often goes ignored and on older type targets it should be replaced, a target falling with a faceplate hit shouldn't happen and this can only happen with a worn front hinge spring. It should tension against the faceplace sufficiently that it prevents the vibration of the faceplate. This vibration, or faceplate wobble, (if the hinge spring isnt tensioned correctly) allows it to engage the paddle causing it to fall.
     
  19. chrisc

    chrisc Lucky git

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    Funnily enough i did call a target at the Classic:D...the scenario was.

    Only 2 had shot the target before and both missed at the 12 o clock position. i shot and saw a mark in the kill, clean and not close to the edge. i had a check for any split marks but was shooting SFT on 10 mag. My shooting buddy had a look at 50 mag and could see no splits so before he shot i asked the marshal to check it out. There was a split at 6 o clock but you needed to be right on top of the target to see it. My point is that even with an experienced FT shooter checking the target a split couldn't be seen and even with 99% of the pellet hitting the kill still didn't fall.......git:D:)

    I make it no secret that the amount of stoppages in HFT REALLY spoil it for me and from K's opening post it would seem i'm not the only one. So please stop being slack jawed faggots and let the comps flow:D;)
     
  20. herx77

    herx77 Member

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    From above postings I would agree (that from my experience of early FT comps) there were very few pulled targets at least from the 80's to early 90's.Not sure why! but Dave Welhams targets were particulary reliable.Kieran might be right that you imagine the impact point of pellets on targets,but there are some good glass out there and sharp eyes that can track pellet onto impact point.Possible there might be more splitters that wishful thinking would like to be more than they were.
    Maybe important and national comps should have a set group of 'reliable' targets that are maintained and used only for these competitions,reliability being the god and moving them where wanted.Cutting out lack of servicing that might occure in clubs.
    HERX77 .
     

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