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UKAHFT External Power Adjusters

Discussion in 'UKAHFT Official Forum' started by Scooby, Sep 2, 2010.

  1. Scooby

    Scooby Pete Dutton

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    Following on from a thread we had a few months ago about the legality of external adjusters in the light of a pending court case it now seems this case is almost finished & the courts have allowed the testing to be done after an external adjuster has been turned up by the tester.

    This means that a number of rifles could be seen as illegal firearms, the problem we now have is how do we stand as far as UKAHFT, WHFTA competitions & activities at our own clubs are concerned. What happens if there is an incident at a shoot or club & the insurers become aware of these guns being involved or even just being used, would this give them the right to invalidate the insurance. Could a private claim then be made against the club/association.

    The biggest worry is that if we aren't stopping these guns being used are we running clubs/competitions knowing insurance could be invalid ??
     
  2. Scooby

    Scooby Pete Dutton

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    In time we will hopefully get some guidance as to what constitutes an external power adjuster but at the moment it seems that any power adjustment without removing the stock can be done, a number of rifles immediately spring to mind:

    1) Walther LG300 in an Alutec stock, Months ago I sealed the adjuster holes on my Alutecs for this reason, the stock must now be removed to make any power adjustments.

    2) Steyr LG100 & 110's fitted with External adjusters, these can take the form of the official Steyr adjuster or modification being to allow access to the standard adjuster. Steyr were aware of the potential for the external adjusters being used to turn the rifle up which is why they now produce a restricted transfer port which limits the power, the problem is this often affects the shot count of the rifles.

    3) Daystate Mk3 & Mk4's that may exceed the limit if reset to factory default as turning up & down via the trigger can be done whilst in a stock.
     
  3. Scooby

    Scooby Pete Dutton

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    It should also be noted that external adjusters have been highlighted to the police due to certain rifles being modified with quick power adjusters that allow the rifle to be well over the limit yet allow the rifle to be turned down for transportation etc, unfortunately this now affects the target shooter who uses this adjustment to stay within the law.
     
  4. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    I would like to see what the rifles in question were 'capable' of in testing. Was this a case of a sub 12 rifle being nudged over the limit, or was this a case of a 30-40 ft-lb rifle being made so it could be turned down to 12?

    In any event, removing the ability to adjust the rifle's power without dissassmbly seems to be a sensible thing to do.
     
  5. Scooby

    Scooby Pete Dutton

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    I was told one of the rifles was doing 25ft/lbs so it's not a case of being a touch over

    I would agree it's the sensible option, I just hope that's as far as they take it otherwise we are stuffed
     
  6. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    Yep.

    We also have to remember that going about your daily business in a responsible manner is not likely to get your rifles seized. Not that I am advocating in any way that people should stay out of the law and just hope not to get into trouble.

    It would seem that if simple steps could be taken to mitigate the possibility, these should be done.

    As far as I remember you telling me, the opening on the walther Alutec is tapered, so a bung placed from inside the action blocking it cannot be pulled out without removing the stock. I'm not sure how the other stocked variants are affected. IIRC the anatomic doesn't have the ability for adjustment without stock removal.
     
  7. Scooby

    Scooby Pete Dutton

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    Yes a plug fitted from the inside cannot be pulled out externally, I've made them press fit & then used a low strength thread lock on them, they could be knocked back out if needed but the action would need to be removed first.
     
  8. saddler

    saddler Phil Gee

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    So any air arms pcp pre anti tamper with grubscrewed side port is also 'externally' adjustable?
     
  9. Knockedover

    Knockedover CSFTA Champ

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    I've recently worked on a relatively new LG110 that doesn't have the restricted port but does have an external power adjuster fitted which is designed to bottom out on the back of the hammerand stop the gun cocking if its adjusted to try and take the gun over power. At max it will run at 11.4ftlb. It seems Steyr has tried a few variations to to limit the guns but its useful to see that they have still allowed some user adjustability without being able to go over the top.
     
  10. JasonGoldsmith66

    JasonGoldsmith66 Banned

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    Does anyone know, for the Harry Preston official UK imports, from which Serial # have the inbuilt port restriction fitted and/or the external power adjuster bottoming out on the back of the hammer to stop the gun going over the legal limit ?

    I only ask, 'cause when these FT guns start hitting the 2nd hand market...well...prices will plummet for the castrated ones, and the i) non port restricted or ii) fully functioning adjuster types - will be worth quite a bit more...and who's the wiser what you get in your hands ?

    Also for the fully working external power adjuster FT types (previous generation), could It be as easy & simply a matter of getting a new 'Trigger Guard Cover' to cover over the adjuster , in order to cover your backside per this court case ? .....and if it doesnt quite fit, then perhaps Its a case of a bit of dremmeling on the plastic for a perfect fit. Anyone tried this yet ?

    :cool:
     
  11. imorik

    imorik Member

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    My thoughts exactly................:eek: especially if you've a set of Allen keys on you. I've always got a set in my tool box when I go up to gun club.
     
  12. Willbe

    Willbe I Like BIG Hats!

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    But could it not be argued that because tools are used to get at and adjust the side-port grub screw that this in effect is no different from having to remove a stock (in itself usually a 2 min operation)
     
  13. saddler

    saddler Phil Gee

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    Well if its acceptable for the police to take a gun that is legal and then wind it up to prove its now over the limit, the argument that the power adjuster is covered/stock needs removing/ needs an allen key seems to me to be moot.

    Under these rules, all airguns are 'capable' of being over 12ftlbs. Some may be a little more difficult to adjust than others, but the law does not say 'capable but difficult to achieve', 'capable but needs an allen key', it says 'capable'.
    If this test case is proved, we need a serious re-think.
     
  14. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    think about it the other way... if you have a gun that's doing 30, and just needs an allen key to get it under 12, then you can perhaps understand that if that situation arose where a gun was deliberately setup to do so, that the police might like to explore that to get a conviction. Not saying that's what's happened here, just that i'd expect more pressing weight in the testing in that situation than perhaps a target shooter who's gun was sold as 12, hasn't been deliberatly modded to go over, being tested... if you catch my drift.

    You have to take a bit of faith that a lot of the time, guns don't just get some random testing to a hard degree for the fun of it. Normally there's a situation that has arisen, or background information that leads the police to suspect something other than may be apparent.

    I would think that a gun that isn't readily wound up to non legal power or that isn't designed to do so, that hasn't been confiscated due to other circumstances might find itself not undergoing such rigourous testing. The police generally are interested in serious crime rather than chasing pcp owners around all day. I think the question you should ask is why would the police ever think you would have something to gain in winding up a gun for the possibility of it being illegal, if that's even possible. Your a target shooter, it has no benefit, you can't shoot competition with it, you don't hunt with it, it's not likely your going to go for some long range poaching session with a target rifle. Slap a load of camo and hunting gear in the bag, and with something that is capable of well in excess of 12, get caught driving around the middle of nowhere at 3am, and the story may be different... catch my drift?

    Stay legal, stay sensible, stay away from being close to the limit, follow the sport responsibly and i doubt you have anything to fear. If you can make it difficult for you to even adjust it, then I think that's all you can do.

    We must remind ourselves that as much as some esoteric methods can drive a rifle over the limit, the manufacturers and sport bodies and those that participate have no interest in doing so. There really is no point. We have chronos on competitions not for legality reasons (because they're not a forensic device), but just to ensure an even playing field, and perhaps to remind people who may fettle that they need to ensure they're within competition limits, which are inside the legal limits.

    The only time i've been interviewed by police was when I was walking through central london after some nubar had been shooting at buses with an air rifle. Being smart I had ID, club ID, was more than polite and cooperative and there was no problem.
     
  15. saddler

    saddler Phil Gee

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    Rob your post makes perfect sense and we don't yet know the full facts. For me though, the suggestion that the police deliberately wound up the rifle to prove it was 'capable' of going over 12 is a potential game changer. Emphasis on the potential.
    (nervous Steyr with external power adjuster owner)
     
  16. Andy006

    Andy006 Member

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    Dark times ahead. :eek:
     
  17. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    I'd suggest calling Harry, and just getting the thing removed. I never thought it was the smartest move at the time. It seemed to chime in with the AT issue at the time, and personally I thought it was as much an answer to that as the supposed problem of setting it up taking a while to do.

    The future is bright, the sport is very strong, and we can still play at the weekends :)
     
  18. poison dwarf

    poison dwarf BANNED

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    imo whether the external adjuster can nudge the gun just over or puts it way ott the police will have no option but to prosecute because the offence is classed as an "absolute offence" ... over 12ft/lbs is the offence, it doesn't matter by how much :(
     
  19. Snapshot

    Snapshot Member

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    From our dealings with the local force, they are reasonable about this. 'Just over' will get you a warning but obviously over will cause a prosecution. But, as already said, they're not after the normal owner; it's guns seized in the course of a raid or from someone acting stupidly that get tested and an over-power airgun is just an extra charge to go with the others in that case.

    Jonathan
     
  20. raygun

    raygun Non member

    I am led to believe that this "adjusting" screw is a standard fitting on quite a number of Ripley's rifles.

    Is it just the sporter versions that have it or is it also fitted to "FT" actions ?

    ATB
    Ray.
     

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