Debate

Discussion in 'General Airgun Chat' started by Neil-T, Sep 18, 2013.

  1. Neil-T

    Neil-T Boingers forever.

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    Some of you may have seen this picture on FB where there is some debate as to its legality under the WFTF Rules. I am led to believe there were more than a couple of shooters using this method. Looking at the extra height it gives, it would be a cheap option for those awkward uphill shots.
     

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  2. rich

    rich Active Member

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    You mean, the footstool appendage to the bean bag?

    I can see this evolving as a "is it permanently attached to the bean bag" issue. ;)

    Personally I think it is only in use to try to negate the skill of the course setter so I'd be happy to see it excluded.
     
  3. Conor

    Conor Never been banned from sales Staff Member

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    Neil you silly sausage, there are NO WFTF rules.;)

    If you ignore them there are no consequences, nothing in the constitution to deal with any RGB that ignores them! It is going to be a free for all, Germany had an average of 40% reducers per course, with full permission from the WFTF president ;)

    A beanbag may be used for sitting or kneeling shots, although it doesnt state how many you may use!
     
  4. peterh

    peterh Stoopit forriner.

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    To me, "a beanbag" is singular. That would mean "one beanbag"... amirite?
     
  5. Neil-T

    Neil-T Boingers forever.

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    Sorry Conor. But according to your reply the WFTF rules are in the head of the current WFTF president.....I remember talking to you at Weston Park about it now. I am over 50, so will put it down as a senior moment.
     
  6. peterh

    peterh Stoopit forriner.

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    Whoa, wait!

    Our Irish friend is sort of right, or so it seems:

    See here. You'll need to scroll down to "equipment".
     
  7. Conor

    Conor Never been banned from sales Staff Member

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    Pardon, the skill to me is a balance, use of angles, target size and range, not just stick a 25mm up the closest tree at 20yrds at a 30-40 degree angle for 7 lanes in a row
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2013
  8. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    The EFTA can't suggest everything all the time.

    It was posted by a welsh shooter. Been commented on by a northern Irish and Dutch shooter.

    So there's 3 horses to carry a proposal before the WFTF ;)
     
  9. Neil-T

    Neil-T Boingers forever.

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    This from WFTF website.


    2.4 Reduced diameter hit zones. The total number of targets with reduced diameter hit zones may not exceed 25% of the total targets on that particular course. Maximum distance limitations for such targets are as follows:
    Reducer size
    15 mm
    25 mm
    Non-positional targets
    20 metres
    35 metres
    Positional targets
    Not allowed
    20 metres

    So according to the rules ( or no rules as the case may be) it's 25%, but a quick phone call to El Presidente can up this to 40%.

    Can of worms....
     
  10. Conor

    Conor Never been banned from sales Staff Member

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    Lets all go to the Olympics to shoot 10m... only problem is when you get there it's 12m! :eek:
     
  11. neilL

    neilL New Member

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    Says a lot for BFTA Rules. Lots of discussion ahead of meetings and more than enough during the meeting but they are clear to all, I believe. (Thanks Shaun!)

    As to the mini-cushion. Strikes me as an aid which isn't needed for those with longer legs for upward shots but same leggy folk struggle more for steep downhill shots .. should they be allowed to carry a trenching tool to dig out a hole? :) j/k.

    Neil (A. N. Other Neil)
     
  12. peterh

    peterh Stoopit forriner.

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    When I try to stick to the seating issue, I'd say nothing needs to be carried forward IF the WFTF refers us back to the NGB rules.

    Question is if we want this, because it will create inconsistencies, and (referring to the case in point) unfair advantages for shooters that are local, and will have made preparations that work around the NGB's rules, which foreign competitors will not have made.

    If I were to have anything to say about it, I'd suggest something like "one seat, without extrusions to provide additional support other than to use as a seat, or to support the leg on kneeling shots."

    Caveat: I haven't been a member of the Dutch governing body for (why did I type three? it's) ten years, so if there is an interest to get this changed, I'd have to refer this to someone who is.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2013
  13. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    Problem is the host NGBs don't always publish rules, and if they do, they can do it sometimes way too late to adapt to or only in piecemeal fashion.

    The EFTA have proposed in the past that rules are to be published before a country is accepted as a host.
     
  14. rich

    rich Active Member

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    I fully agree with you. One of these would be plenty, let alone seven in a row.
     
  15. peterh

    peterh Stoopit forriner.

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    What I think is, differences in NGB-determined rules should not be about gear. With gear I mean not only the rifle and scope and whether or not electronic rangefinding is allowed, but also rules about slings, bean bags, gloves, shooting jackets and other such stuff. If an NGB determines what can and cannot be used as a rifle sling, then people will work with these rules to the maximum extent possible - and sometimes beyond.

    Dave Monck told me a story from the time he was BFTA's secretary, about a guy who appeared at a shoot in a jacket with clips, to which he would then clip his rifle sling for standing shots in such a way that he could actually have the rifle shouldered without using so much as one hand.

    If an NGB has a rule that leaves enough room for such things, people will use the room available. Which is OK when it's about a national shoot (well, I wouldn't like it, but I have nothing to say), but when you're going to operate on an international level, you should have a level playing field.
    To which the organising body would say "well, the foreigners are free to get the same equipment that we have". Suuuuure.

    Someone, I forgot who, once argued that the WFTF rules do nothing to make the sport accessible for people on a budget, or elderly people, or people with a handicap.
    This is true. But then again, the rules for the 100m steeple chase don't make it any easier for the elderly or for those with shot knees to compete on an international level.

    When we started playing this game thirteen years ago, we created a set of inclusive rules that aimed at getting participation, which we called "national" classes, and for the true fanatics, we had the International Open class that would stick to the WFTF rules as much as possible, with a few exceptions which catered for our different circumstances. We had no woodlands to shoot in, so we had to think of other means to make our courses interesting - which included more reducers. Where the WFTF rules were inconclusive, we simply copied what the BFTA had thought of, since we suspected that you guys would have the most experience.

    The International Open class (which is now called FT1 here) has always had a 12 footpound limit, even though there weren't any people shooting 12 footpound rifles in these days - most were over, some way over. So the National Open class would allow up to 20 footpound, because we thought that was the maximum that our Knockover targets woud withstand.

    But there were no rules whatsoever for International Open that would be about gear that were different from the WFTF or BFTA rules - and that is how I think it should be. There is no reason for an NGB to have different rules about rifle slings or bean bags or shooting gloves. If an NGB wants to allow complex strap systems for the disabled, or leg risers for people with short legs, that's fine - but not for international competitions, and I really think that WFTF should take this into account. If I can't do kneeling shots because my knee is shot, tough luck, I'll take 'em standing if this is allowed, and otherwise I'll just have to drop them. And if I'm unable to get up after a lying shot, I should either not do HFT or I should see if there is enough interest for a version of HFT for the physically challenged.

    About course layout: I haven't seen the course of the Worlds in Ebern [edit: apart from photo's and videos], but I'm a bit on the fence about whether it was too hard. One might argue that having a lot of reducers on position shots would separate the best from the rest, but apart from challenging your shooting abilities, a course should also be varied, and not emphasising a particular ability, such as being capable of kneeling and leaning backward at the same time seven times in a row.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2013

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