Converting 10m to ft

Discussion in 'Walther' started by hmangphilly, Nov 13, 2013.

  1. hmangphilly

    hmangphilly The Doctor

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    ' Morning all
    Could you give me an idea of the approx current cost involved of the parts to build a 12 ft lb from the base 10 m rifle lg300 alutec
    Suggestions to the suppliers of bits . Any specialist machining involved. Etc
    Is it a sensible thing to get involved in ?
    Exploring options really , kicking myself at missing what looked like a nice one on here recently.
    Feel free to burst my bubble , I've just got the hots for one of these
     
  2. sven

    sven Member

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    I recently converted two LG300's and a LG200 from 5,5fpe to 12 fpe. All these allready had the new type regulator (with the ring grooves on the outside).
    This new type regulator can be set from the original 70 bar to 92-95 bar output pressure to get to 12 fpe without any other conversion to the rifle to get this fpe level. Then you need to increase the preload on the hammerspring while shooting it over a chrono.

    The older type 10meter 5,5fpe regs have no grooves, are shorter and need to be changed to the new type ( http://www.sportwaffen-schneider.de/product_info.php/products_id/20946 ) an 165 euro part which is then allready set to 80 bar.
    This 80 bar reg setting is not high enough to get 12 fpe with the standard hammer and barrel, I got it to 722fps with the JSB 8.3 grainers. Original 12fpe Walther Dominators have a longer barrel (490mm vs 420mm) and a heavier hammer. But when you set the reg to 92 bar the rifle will get to 12 fpe easily. I made a reg tester and a special tool to open the reg to do this. But I found that all these 3 regs needed three/eights of a turn on the set screw to get to 92-95 bar. So it can be done without a reg tester.
    http://www.shooting-the-breeze.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=9532&stc=1&d=1384349690
    http://www.shooting-the-breeze.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=9533&stc=1&d=1384349690

    Opening the reg is not easy. It is screwed together very tight. I clamp the cilinder side of the reg in a big bench vise with aluminum V-grooved jaws and thick leather around the reg to protect it. Then use a special made tool which has bolt holes at 10 degrees angle and use high strenght M5 bolts using the full threaded length in the reg to unscrew the two parts of the regulator.

    If you need to order a new type regulator and do not want to fiddle with the reg setting you could try to get to 12 fpe by changing the hammer. Order a heavier dominator hammer: http://www.sportwaffen-schneider.de/product_info.php/products_id/28769 . 60 euro. I have not tried this myself so I'm not sure if you will be able to reach 12fpe with the heavier hammer but the short 10m barrel.

    To get a good working 12fpe you also need to change the valve seat from the original blue or green type to the white PTFE type. This is a 5 euro part. I bought it at http://www.sportwaffen-schneider.de/product_info.php/products_id/20947. The Walther part no. is 2732505.

    The only problem that is left then is the cocking lever. This will interfere with the scope mounts or turret when cocking the hammer. I shortened the original cocking lever, put in a M4 threaded hole and added a pin so it looked like an original Dominator cocking lever. The position to which it can be shortened is determined by the pin in the breech block that is the stop of the lever in its down position. It still needs to rest on this pin after shortening it.
    The cocking lever is made from hardened steel. To be able saw, drill and thread it I heated the part that needed to come off while keeping the other side in the bench vise to protect it from the heat of the blowtorch so that part would stay hardened.

    You can also choose to order an offset cocking lever from Schneider : http://www.sportwaffen-schneider.de/product_info.php/products_id/21896 . Walther part 2688638. 70 euro. But then you most probably need to adjust the barrel position back and forth in the breech so the tapered loading bolt with o-ring closes nicely in the taper of the breech of the barrel .
    This is not difficult (3 screws on top of the breech block) but sometimes the barrel is out of adjustment range because of the new cocking lever. Meaning the transfer port in the barrel does not line up nicely with the transfer port in the breechblock. In that case you need to order a different size loading bolt lever. There are three sizes of this part: 0, 1 and 2. They are called "Spannstuck" in german. Position 8 in the exploded view drawings. The walther parts are 2605864 Spannstück 1, 2605856 Spannstück 2, 2607701 Spannstück 0. The number is stamped on them.
    I have seen them here: http://www.schiesssport-billharz.de...eck-0?x310b2=33d570b6418c9ae1f1e6925570d3eb8a
    for about 14 euro each.

    My own converted LG300 and LG200 both shoot very well. I found an nice batch of JSB Exact die number 80 that shoots 15mm/0,6inch 5-shot groups at 50meters/55 yards from the sitting FT position regularly with the LG300. Just a bit better grouping than I was able to do with my Steyr and EV2.

    So in short: A conversion can be done with good result, but it takes some tools and mechanical handiness.
     

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  3. hmangphilly

    hmangphilly The Doctor

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    that's fabulous sven . lots of info there for me to ponder.
    just one thing that occurred to me,.... whats the big deal with trying to achieve 12fpe( or as close to it as we dare?).
    whats the advantage in achieving the maximum permissible power?
    why not 11or 10 or 8 etc
     
  4. hmangphilly

    hmangphilly The Doctor

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    heres a twist,
    I just missed out on a rifle, but the man says he knows of an lg 300 xt . Do these involve more work to bring up to power ?
     
  5. sven

    sven Member

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    Maxing out the power, up to a safe 11,5 fpe limit, gives you 2 advantages:
    - less wind sensitivity
    - flatter pellet trajectory
    Which makes it easier to hit your target.

    Around 11 fpe (765 to 770 fps with 8,3 grain) is probably a good optimum between safety, shot reaction, trajectory and wind.

    But 720 fps (reg at 80 bar and light hammer, short barrel) only gives 9,5 fpe and you might be making things difficult to yourself in the shooting game.

    The LG300 XT is the same as the LG300 with the advantage of certainly having a new type regulator. Saving you 165 euro in buying a new type reg yourself.
    The only other difference is that the XT has a different type of "absorber"compared to the LG300. The absorber is in the back of the loading bolt and tries to diminish the shot reaction of the rifle caused by the accelerating pellet and the airjet from the muzzle. Steyr has such a system as well and calls it "Stabilizer". The LG300 has a spring powered absorber while the XT seems to have a magnetic system.
    Besides the absorber the XT has exactly the same parts as the 300. You could change a 300 into a XT by changing the absorber to a new type.

    This makes no difference for the conversion to 11 fpe. The last Walther I did for a clubmate was a XT. The work is the same for the LG300 and the LG300XT: Set the reg to 90 bar, change the cocking lever and adjust the barrel setting in the breech block when neccessary.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2013
  6. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    Sven, I think you're confusing things a little... i may be wrong.

    LG300 no absorber (like dominator)
    LG300xt series, mechanical absorber
    LG400's have the new magnetic absorber.

    Rings on the reg don't mean they are the reg for 12ft-lb. My LG300xt has the ringed reg on it, and i'm fairly certain it's shorter than the ringed reg on my dominator. Both are silver. The non ringed gold regs are the mk1 regs which were superceeded by the mk2 regs, which are silver, and have rings, but I think they vary in length depending on their intended power use.

    Here's a dominator and LG300xt lined up. The red lines show that i've matched them in size well, but the yellow lines show how the regulator is longer before the rings start on the dominator than the LG300xt. I believe the difference is because the dominator reg has more volume in it's chamber in the first half (from the left) than the 6ft-lb version. I have both rifles, so i can measure, but I'm using the lg300xt so i wont take the reg off to find out ;)

    I run my dominator regs at around 85 bar. It may be that because the lg300xt reg has less volume that it needs the higher reg pressure to get the power, which makes sense. Not sure because I don't know the difference, but I think there are different silver ringed regs.

    [​IMG]

    Here's a cutaway of the LG300xt

    [​IMG]

    You can see the recoil absorber and the lighter hammer.
     

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  7. neilL

    neilL New Member

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    Nice images Rob. Clears up some confusion I had.

    Do they really mill out real mechs fr those images? I will make sure to take a close look at any 300XT you may sell :)

    Quick Q - are you using the 300XT for 10m? with the higher power?

    and thanks a bunch for the SCATT links - took me to the ISSF Youtube section and I may or may not have spent time watching the 50m Finals - wow, really changed the competition format. Great stuff!

    Allegedly ... I may not have watched it ... {cough}

    Neil
     
  8. sven

    sven Member

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    Hi Rob,

    I'm not confusing things, just tried to make my story not more complicated than it allready was. But you are certainly right. The Dominator regs are longer. The rear part, the secondary/low pressure chamber is 10mm longer for the 16 Joule/12fpe regs. The number of rings is the same however. The 10mm more means more air to move the pellet.

    But this does NOT mean that you need a 16 Joule regulator to convert a LG300 from 10 meter to 12 fpe. When you set the new short ringed type 10m regulator to 92-95 bar you will easily get 12 fpe from an LG300 or LG300 XT. I have done 2 recently with good result.

    I even found an advantage in using the short regs: The rifles are less noisy than with a long 16 joule reg set at 80 bar. I think the long 16 joule regs are using to much air for a shot. The excess air leaving the muzzle and causing the extra blast noise.

    I'm not completely sure for the question about the absorbers. I do not own an XT so I have not taken the absorber out of one. The one I converted is from a clubmate.
    My older type LG300 (not XT) does have an absorber however. But it did have the short golden reg without rings. So older LG300's do have absorbers. The cut-away picture comes from the Pilkgun website originally and is very old. In my opinion it shows the LG300 absorber and not the XT.

    And when I look at the 2 exploded view/parts drawings from Walther for the 300 and the 300XT it is clear that there are 2 types of absorbers for the LG300 and XT. The LG300 drawing shows a different one compared to the drawing of the LG300XT. But because I do not own a XT I cannot compare the absorbers side by side. And I do not know the mode of action for the XT absorber. I may not be magnetic, but just a different spring loaded type like the LG300. For the new LG400 rifle I have read it is a magnetic type of action.

    Looking at the evolution in Walther PCP rifles: I think the LG200 has no absorber. The LG300 10meter version is the LG200 with an absorber added. The LG300 Dominator has no absorber. The LG300XT has an newer type absorber. The LG400 has an magnetic absorber.

    I hope this clears the confusion more than it complicates it?
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2013
  9. sven

    sven Member

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    Just found out more about the Absorbers in the LG300 series of rifles.
    At the Carl-Walther Sportwaffen website in the Exploded views section there is a drawing of the LG300 XT system:
    http://www.carl-walther.de/public/downloads/manuals/2752310_f_ET_LG300XT_System_Protouch.pdf

    In the parts list on page 2 under position no. 26 it says: Magnet Absorber.
    So the difference between the LG300 and the LG300XT is in the working mode of the absorber.
    The LG300 has a pneumatic and spring powered absorber while the XT has a magnetic system.

    The new LG400 has the same type absorber as the LG300XT. Part ordering numbers for the absorbers of the LG300XT and LG400 are the same. At least for the working parts of the absorber. The LG400 has a different loading probe/bolt. This new loading bolt that indicates whether or not a pellet is loaded.
    The exploded view and part number list of the LG400: http://www.carl-walther.de/public/downloads/manuals/LG400_System_2777398_d.pdf
     
  10. Adam

    Adam Active Member

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    Now that's a beefy hammer spring! :eek:
    Put a piston on the end of that and you could have an LG boinger! :D
     
  11. hmangphilly

    hmangphilly The Doctor

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    Good work Sven .
    How are your mates getting on with their rifles ? I'm particularly interested now in how the shorter 420 mm barrel performs over varying distances. ( I assume it was designed for purely 10 m work ???)
    If it's fine then what would have been the point in the factory designing and tooling up to produce a 490mm version ?
    Thanks just trying to get my head around all this .

    Oh yes does anybody make an offset cocking lever out of a lovely lump of ally or Ti ? It's just that it needs sorting out any way and to be honest the walther one looks like a bit of bent tin ....,sorry walther!!
     
  12. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    :D Maybe not. I have seen an LG300 without the absorber, and with the silver ringed reg...! I'm pretty sure my XT absorber isn't magnetic, i'll have to look at the parts diagram. At the end of the season I can strip it to look :)

    My hammer on my dominator is different to an earlier dominator...

    If you look at the breech on my photos... look at the angle where the pellet is loaded... steeper/shallower between the two?

    I wonder if Walther just fit new parts as time goes on?
     
  13. sven

    sven Member

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    My mates are doing fine, but are just starting in FT. Hitting a 40mm KZ at 55 yards makes 'm smile for a week. ;)

    My own converted LG300 and LG200 with 420mm barrels are shooting okay at all ranges up to 55 yards. Have not tried any further out. I tested the LG300 at 55 yards right after I had converted it . And after trying 3 different batches of JSB Exacts I found a batch (die 80) that did 5 shot groups of 15mm regularly. 10 shot groups a bit bigger but some shooter error there. Shot outdoors from the sitting FT position. The other batches were about 20mm group size.
    Did the same thing with the LG200, same 3 batches, and it liked another batch (die 21) but shot groups just a bit smaller than the LG300. I did not measure them, maybe 13mm.

    So accuracy is fine from the 420mm barrels. (Steyr LG110 FT barrels are 450mm, so just a bit longer)
    I have not been told why Walther chose to use 490mm barrels for the Dominator. But they probably copied the Airarms S400 and EV2 barrel length :). Carl Walther uses barrels bought from another company: Lothar Walther, like Airarms and many other companies do. So it is quite easy for them to order barrels in a different lenght. They do not need to tool up themselves to do so.

    There may be an advantage in shot count from one cilinder fill when using longer barrels. Depending on the setup of the hammerspring and reg. They also chose to make a longer aircilinder for the Dominator to get more shots from a fill. So the shot count may have bothered them quite a bit in the designing of the Dominator.
    It may also have to do with the FAC or US market. Walther made a 21 joule/15.5fpe version of the Dominator. It may be they chose the 490mm barrel to be able to get to 21 joule / 15,5fpe. This 21 joule rifle has a stronger hammerspring and a higher reg pressure setting.

    I my opinion the 420 mm barrels are long enough to accurately shoot out to 55 yards and have the advantage of a shorter lock time.
     
  14. sven

    sven Member

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    Hi Rob,
    Could very well be. Looking at the drawings it seems the magnetic absorbers have a bigger endcap, you could see this from the outside without stripping the rifle

    The picture you mention is from a Protouch rifle and shows a steeper breech loading port cutout. The Protouch rifles have their own exploded view drawings for the system (not only for the stock) on the Walther website. It seems logical that you'd only make and publish a new drawing when new parts are used.
    The Walther exploded views for the XT series show a clue that there is a difference between rifles with a serial no. under and over 22000. The heading says " Ab WNr. 22000". Which is German for " from RNo. 22000". Most problably meaning "from Rifle number 22000". So there will be a change in parts numbers before and after this serial.

    Original Dominators have a serial starting with a 5 and have "Dominator" engraved in the breechblock on the left hand side. Converted 10m rifles can easily be identified because of this.

    I do not know if Walther fitted new parts to rifles while staying with the same type designation. But it could very well be. If you improve certain parts then why would you keep producing the old part?

    I know that a lot of the early 10m regulators were replaced by for free by local Walther dealers because of the problems with the old golden unringed type. The regulator type is not a good indication of the rifle type because of this.

    At big matches in Germany there are stands from the rifle factories with factory technicians that do maintenance and service to the rifles of the shooters there. I have seen them stripping rifles and replacing parts all day long. For free usually. So in Germany a lot of old rifles may have new improved parts fitted.
    Besides a good customer relation they also get a good feedback on any problems with their products.

    Your different Dominator hammer is interesting. I have only found 2 different hammers or hammer part numbers on any of the Walther drawings. One for the Dominator/Hunter, which is a heavier version and one for the LG300, XT and Pro-Touch. So it might be one of your Dominators has the lighter 10m hammer?
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2013
  15. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    Hmm... think it's different again...you can see the 6ft-lb version has a lot thinner waist.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    The hammer in my other dommy is different again. Similar to the top one, but that top one has a recess where the hammer hits the knock open valve (in the centre, not where it hits) and my other is flat. From memory the finish looks different as well.
     
  16. krolik

    krolik New Member

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    Just a small add on on the cocking lever.
    There is no need to buy new one during conversion.

    I did mine differently. I cut it through with Dremel cutting disc (you might want to use something more powerful - it is really well hardened part) and glued together pieces using epoxy glue. Works perfect and has an interesting advantage - you can shorten it as much as you need and no need to worry about the stop pin in the block. You get the movement stop on the shaft. Might want to put some teflon tape to protect the surface.

    See attachments of my beauty: Walther Combinator. ;)
    It is LGM2 converted to PCP 10m Air Rifle.
    On second and third attachment lever is well visible.

    Regarding regs you can easily use standard 7,5J reg. However the overall efficiency of the system is lower as it will require higher air consupmtion per shot. This is not only mine observation. Some people add additional "extension ring" between regulator halves to increase amount of "regulated air" before the main valve. Others simply buy 16J reg. which is easier if you do not have access to lathe or someone who can do it for you.

    Springs you use are very important here. Both the hammer spring and main valve spring. It changes characteristics dramatically.
    My personal favourite is the original LGM2 spring for the main valve and LG300 spring for the hammer. Practically no recoil and high energy output still with factory 70bar set reg. I didnt want 16J output so I didnt try myself where the limit is. I started with 12J when the rifle was assembled and then I only set is down to 7,5J. However I advised my HFT friend to try this config and he easily achieved 16,3J (12fpe).

    Good luck with your conversion.
     

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  17. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    Just to add more confusion... my dommy reg and the reg on my Lg300xt 10m rifle are the same length and have the same amount of rings...:eek:o
     
  18. krolik

    krolik New Member

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    I was just tempted to try how much speed one can get from a 7,5J reg set originally at 75bars.
    A lot depends on barrel length and set of valve and hammer springs.

    So with 75bars on reg, original LGM2 (soft, slightly elongated to fit reg setup) main valve spring and LG300 hammer spring plus original match barrel: 227m/s on JSB Exact 0,547gram pellets.
    Velocities perfectly stable (I thought my chrono got broken! ;) ).
     
  19. Abbasi

    Abbasi New Member

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    To get a good working 12fpe you also need to change the valve seat from the original blue or green type to the white PTFE type.
    ☝☝
    Does anyone have experience of replacing this piece? What makes a difference
     

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