Castle March Cash Club Hadicap

Discussion in 'Hunter (HFT) & Field Target (FT)' started by Carlov, Mar 20, 2011.

  1. Carlov

    Carlov New Member

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    I didn't want to hijack Gilli's post, But I would be remiss if I didn't reply to Steve's comments contained therein about Castle's Club Cash Shoot, for which I was largely responsible.

    For the record: Beforehand, everyone was aware that the new handicap system was experimental. Many shooters asked how it worked and I explained. No one was forced to enter if they didn't want to as the club shoot was run along side.

    (Incidentally, if the shooters that compete as Castle members had entered any scores throughout any visit in the past year, the results would have been very, very different. But since I had to penalise those not having any recorded score to be fair to all club members, the outcome was not satisfactory for those concerned. (As I expected.))

    The grades in placings went thus:
    1st C grade
    2nd B grade
    3rd C grade
    4th A grade
    5th B grade
    6th AA grade
    7th B grade
    8th B grade
    9th AA grade
    10th C grade
    etc...
    In retrospect, It's a little bottom heavy, but a good mix of grades which any handicap system will produce. With more data it would have been better. However, I sincerely hope my mistake will not keep the Castle top guns from entering future club events (calendar permitting.)

    A big thanks to Neil for being such a good sport about it. (I've not laughed so much for ages.)

    Anyway. The “experiment†worked, and it has stimulated people to think about a way of including all club members at club competition level, (which is what I was trying to achieve.)
    The development of the new and more balanced system has come about as a direct result. (Not my idea you may be relieved to learn.)

    Since; we have just held our first committee meeting of the year and the inclusion of AA has been voted through unanimously at club level in the interests of a “level playing field,†with a view to making the up and coming Cyril Julian Trophy a hard fort competition across all grades.
     
  2. Mr P

    Mr P Active Member

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    Carl could you please post the amount of targets hit
     
  3. Carlov

    Carlov New Member

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    1st Club cash handicap results

    *Name Score (Targets)
    1st Adam Lowe --- 473.3 ---- 19
    2nd Dave Bull --- 466.75 ---- 25
    3rd Dave Lowe --- 448.9 ---- 9
    4th Duncan Jeffery --- 448.38 ---- 34
    5th Dean Broughton--- 446.92 ---- 32
    6th Neil Daniels --- 444.14 ---- 39
    7th Pete Rowley --- 443.51 ---- 34
    8th Mark Wharton --- 442.04 ---- 32
    9th Andy Gillott --- 439.14 ---- 38
    10th Jake Hall --- 438.72 ---- 25
    11th John Callahan --- 435.11 ---- 35
    12th Lee Houseman --- 434.1 ---- 27
    13th Mark Fisher --- 429.14 ---- 36
    13th Andy Gough --- 427.14 ---- 29
    14th Steve Cope --- 426.7 ---- 36
    15th Mark Brewitt --- 424.14 ---- 35
    16th Pete Tunstall --- 421.36 ---- 17
    17th Dave Lindley --- 418.76 ---- 31
    18th Andras F Moro --- 414.14 ---- 33
    19th Martin Pitt --- 406.45 ---- 30
    20th Paul Flinders --- 404.32 ---- 23
    21st Rob Long --- 404.14 ---- 31
    22nd Anthony Johnson--- 400.48 ---- 31
    23rd Mike Barnes --- 395.66 ---- 12
    24th Dave Palmer --- 397.56 ---- 11

    NB note closeness of some of the results.

    1st and 3rd did exceptionally well because they are complete novices and had entered all of their scores since first attending. This anomaly shows the drawback of such handicap systems and the reason it was being trialled. On the plus side, these two guys will be encouraged to continue in their new chosen sport.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2011
  4. Pete_Shearer

    Pete_Shearer Member

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    Carl

    Great day, gives the chance for the more novice shooters to be in the running. Everyone (apart from a few 'elite' shooters) said what a fantastic day was had.

    Lets do it more often !
     
  5. Mr P

    Mr P Active Member

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    So who said it was not a fantastic
    day I said the handicap system was **** as admitted by the above
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2011
  6. mikewills8904

    mikewills8904 walthers last the course

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    handicapping

    whilst i understand clubs have to encourage new and novice shooters. how does handicapping the top shots improve anyone .

    yes i know that it is nice for newer shooters to win something ,but that is the idea of learning and getting better .not being giving it by handicapping the better shots .
     
  7. M.S.B.

    M.S.B. Member

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    I was told on the saturday how the handicap system was going to run So i knew it was favorable to the lower grades. If i had a problem with it i could have paid the normal range fee and not entered into the spirit of the comp and the day in general. On a personal note Carl had a thankless job of trying to find a suitable handicap system that would be fair for both AA and C grade shooters. Its a job i would not like because what ever system you use someone will not like it. Castle members know this has been tried in the past and not worked. Thanks for giving it a go Carl.

    I enjoyed the day it was nice to get back to castle on a sunday and catch up with fellow members i have not seen in a while. I thought the course was suitable for all grades to enjoy and the food was good too. I just hope the handicap problem will not put people off wanting to do it again in the near future because on the day i got the feeling most people enjoyed it. :)

    On a lighter note i must say i have never laughed so much at the end of the shoot when Mr D took center stage with his wit and banter and for me that capped off a excellent day. :D:D

    Regards

    Mark
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2011
  8. Conor

    Conor Never been banned from sales Staff Member

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    here, here,
     
  9. NJR 100

    NJR 100 Because I`m AWESIME !!

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    you pays your money you take you shot?

    I can see how it might work.

    Take our own Wafta Winter final thing.

    Most shooters in our region are B class or "real" A Class. We dont have many AA class in wafta and they are classed as A for regional.
    So come our final and C,B, A shooters are thinking oh well, Berty is going to win it.
    However, with a handicap system the lower scorers have a chance, so they have something to aim for?


    However, It dont work for me. I dont ike the points system either, i prefere number of targets hit as thats what the game is about. Thus i would have said Neil won.
    To the rest of the shooters, you need to improve. Its what i have been trying to do for the last 5 years.

    So, i guess the choice is not to enter the Castle handicap system if you thinks its not working, which is what i would probably do at this point?
     
  10. M.S.B.

    M.S.B. Member

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    Thats a new one for me i did not know there is a ' ELITE ' grade at Castle.

    I thought we use AA, A, B, C grade like every other club. :D

    Regards

    Mark
     
  11. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    Never had Neil down as "Elite" anyway... more like "Mostly Harmless"

    ('84 computer game geek joke)
     
  12. Jon

    Jon Member

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    Totally agree as well it dont, in fact has an adverse effect on the better shots.

    Generally speaking we used to use an handicap system back in 93/94 season. Above statistics look very very familiar.
    A graders clearing the courses ending up 2nd and 3rd behind winner a legit B grader finishing with 2 more than the max possible. Meaningless.

    I do this sport for enjoyment, take it as it comes on level pegging in the top grade regardless of actual grade and accept i aint good enough.
     
  13. mikewills8904

    mikewills8904 walthers last the course

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    However, with a handicap system the lower scorers have a chance, so they have something to aim for?

    ,,,,, they have something to aim for anyway -to improve and get better .also remember the aim is not to beat berty ect it is to hit targets ,we are shooting against the course not each other .


    However, It dont work for me. I dont ike the points system either, i prefere number of targets hit as thats what the game is about. Thus i would have said Neil won.
    To the rest of the shooters, you need to improve. Its what i have been trying to do for the last 5 years.

    So, i guess the choice is not to enter the Castle handicap system if you thinks its not working, which is what i would probably do at this point?[/QUOTE]

    ,,,, i was not having a pop at castle i was just saying that you cannot improve new or novice shooters buy giving them false wins and hopes .

    it is a fact in all sports that you have some people who win and some who dont .perhaps what the ukahft do and raffle things is the way to go .

    but dont take away the fact that there are always those that win and those that did not ..
     
  14. Mr P

    Mr P Active Member

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    Carl tried a system which I did not think worked quite right however from his post this morning it either has or will be ammended and it can work with a bit of tweeking I think it needs to based on targets hit not on an unasilable lead
     
  15. Conor

    Conor Never been banned from sales Staff Member

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    Only workable system can be based on grades, if it's individualised to shooters then it simply can't work.

    Adding to your score at the end might work a bit better, although exact figures need to be agreed on.
    E.g.
    AA- 0
    A - 1
    B - 2
    C - 4
     
  16. thesmokindog

    thesmokindog New Member

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    Hi all

    L.S.R, that is the system we will be using in any club competitions in the future.

    I would like to remind castle members that we are lucky enough to have some of the best shooters in the country.This ability to shoot at such a high standard does not and should not make them elite, it just makes them a better shot than the rest of us and it is up to us to improve our scores and compete with them.
    Guys like Neil, Mr P, MSB, Mark Fisher & Mr Gillett are some of the nicest blokes you could meet and you should know by now that if you are struggling with your scores for whatever reason, you only have to ask and they will gladly look at what you may be doing wrong and advise you on a way forward. But, if you do ask then please listen, non of these guys are this good because they don't know what they are talking about are they.

    As for the above mentioned competition, Carl did a fantastic job of a very thankless task, everyone had a good mornings shooting, great food and the highest standards of Neils banter - Result.

    Regards
    Andy
     
  17. AIRFIX GILLY

    AIRFIX GILLY WFTA World Champion 2012

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    equall`s

    Hi Carl, just like to say that I enjoyed my day at Castle and thanks for your efforts in trying something new to encourage all the shooters at Castle to have a go. I really dont understand how your handicap system works, maybe you could try and explain it in simple terms. Then maybe we can all think about it and try and make it work better. One question was me and Mark Fisher on level terms at the start?:rolleyes:
     
  18. Neil

    Neil MFTA Winter League Champion 2011 and winner of som

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    No Gilly, not level at all, he's much taller :D
     
  19. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    Don't think so Andrew. He always has the psychological edge on you just by existing :D
     
  20. NJR 100

    NJR 100 Because I`m AWESIME !!

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    Team umpa lumpa

    Indeed Gilly, you will need to shoot with Gary Powell (on left in pic) in team umpalumpa to be on level terms with anyone :D:p

    [​IMG]
     

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