BSA gold star se no wind

Discussion in 'Hunter (HFT) & Field Target (FT)' started by hotversion, Mar 11, 2015.

  1. hotversion

    hotversion Member

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    Just seen a vid on YouTube about the new BSA goldstar se being able to just aim at the target in wind and just hits it....a air rifle that takes no wind sub 12lb is this a load ov bollocks:confused:
     
  2. Yorkshiretea

    Yorkshiretea B Grade Bandit

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    This one? Not the only thing he gets wrong either.

    <iframe width="660" height="415" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/xGoNPcCwaGQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
     
  3. DaveRobinson

    DaveRobinson NEFTA Chairman

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    Well tek him proper shooting up guisley see if it takes wind up there.
     
  4. Tench

    Tench WHFTA World Champion 2016.

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    In Rogers defence he has shot 100% on 2 consecutive days in a uk hft nationals double header and also placed in the trophies in the world hft championship last year, he does know a bit about shooting!
    Terry Doe also has a feature on the Gold Star in this months Airgun World and also comments about this rifle taking less wind when compared side by side with another rifle. They are not alone in experiencing this either, several other people have commented to me about there findings regarding reduced pellet movement in the wind. I am looking forward to shooting HFT with one myself this coming weekend, nothing beats personal experience to make your own mind up!
     
  5. scutter

    scutter Aspiring to mediocrity

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    But let's also not forget that Rog is the BSA promotional team captain and it's his job to try and promote the product. I am sure the Goldstar is a good gun, but before spending your money you need to have a full test.

    It is my understanding that a pellet is affected by two main things, twist rate and speed down range. The newer BSA barrels are apparently very good and with the stripper fitted as standard the pellet fly with very little wobble and this gives a high BC and good speed down range.

    The thing is though, between the most efficient barrel and the worst I have only ever seen a 40 fps variance at 40 yards. I do not think this is enough to massively affect windage on a rifle.

    so this leaves twist rate, I do not know what the twist is on a Goldstar but if they have developed a twist rate that takes no wind it will be the biggest development in shooting for 100 years.

    I hope for BSA'S Sake this is true as it will mean that all the Goldstars out there should score 55+ at every round and they will become the go to gun for hft and ft. It will be interesting to watch Rogers scores to see how this gun does.

    Also I think Terrys gun was a .22
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2015
  6. Tench

    Tench WHFTA World Champion 2016.

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    You are quite right Gary, that is why I intend to find out what it is like for myself. And I agree Roger is very enthusiastic about BSA as I am myself, so shooting one this weekend will allow me to experience this apparent phenomenon and arrive at my own conclusion.
    I shall shoot the entire course inside edge of kill if there is any wind and see what the result is! :D
     
  7. skires

    skires Well-Known Member

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    I'm tasting just a hint of sarcasm there Gary!

    It's a very brave statement though. If the twist rate and barrel/stripper exit are such that the pellet's stability is improved then it may have been fine to say that the barrels seem to take less wind. To say you just aim inside the kill, may be tongue in cheek, but some idiots will think that's what you do in a 20mph cross wind at 45 yards with their new 900 quid gun.

    I'm sure Roger has broad shoulders but on a windy day, like you hint at, if all of those Glodstars haven't scored high 50's, when all top non BSA shooters around them have struggled to make 50, there may just be the odd p1ss taking comment.

    There may be need for a bigger dummy!
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2015
  8. Brian.Samson

    Brian.Samson Allowed in Sales Staff Member

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    A 40 fps variation at 40 yards equals half an inch (12mm) at 40 yards in a 4mph crosswind (approximately what that would mean is instead of having to aim off 1.5 mildots, you'd only need to aim off 1 mildot).

    twist rate might have an effect, the muzzle brake - might have an effect, but there are other factors that can have an effect too such as the air delivery system (reg pressure etc).

    In short - It's possible for a rifle/barrel/pellet combination to be more efficient ballistically which will mean it takes less wind, but it's not possible for a pellet to take no wind at all. ( unless your windage turret is set wrong :) )
     
  9. rich

    rich Active Member

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    Surely, if the BC was that good and the pellet took no wind, the pellet would also fly virtually flat? Now that would be something, just set your zero to 55 yards and anything shorter just aim top of kill....:D:D:lev
     
  10. scutter

    scutter Aspiring to mediocrity

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    Just a Hint of Sarcasm Skires :)

    My concern with this video is two fold,

    1. There is no way that a pellet can take no wind, once the pellet has left the barrel, no matter how efficient it is or how it spinning, it is now being affected by outside forces. Gravity will be dragging the pellet towards the floor and wind resistance will be slowing the pellet down.

    As Brian has said, there are things that can be done to help the pellet,twist rate and a good muzzle break, the muzzle break will strip the unwanted air from behind the pellet as it leaves the barrel. It is this air that can cause the pellet to wobble in flight and a wobbling pellet creates a bigger hole in the air and as such it will slow down faster. So, if a pellet is slower at 40 yards it will take more wind etc.

    2. Roger is an ambassador for BSA and he claims to have designed the Goldstar, if he is making claims in this video that cant be replicated and shooters buy this gun on the basis of a video made by the guns designer, shooters will be sending their rifles back to BSA as they are not performing the same way as the one in the video.

    As I said, I am sure the Goldstar is good and I am looking forward to reviewing it, but so far the evidence does not back up the claims, now, this is not a dig at Roger, but he has shot the gun twice in competition, once at Cambridge on a windless day where no one came out of the kill and he shot a very credible 56 (this proves the gun can perform). Then again at Maldon on a windy day and he shot a 45.

    I hope the Goldstar is great, BSA are a legendary company and i think we all want to see them at the top end of the leaderboard, but we have to be careful with wild claims about guns. People save up for a long time to buy their first PCP and if they base their purchase on promotional blurb, then we have done them a dis-service.

    I look forward to reading Tench's findings, both he and Brian will probably forget more about the internal workings of airguns then I will ever know.

    This is a genuine question for Brian, how does reg pressure affect the pellet, does a shorter blast remove turbulent air etc?

    Gary
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2015
  11. tugg

    tugg itchy trigger finger

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    I shot Laitys bsa at Cambridge and it shot well but it was taking wind between .25 and .5 at 45yds, its very hard to tell if it less than my usual rig as the wind was changing all day
     
  12. LAity

    LAity Goed Geschoten

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    Hi all

    Just to say that the gun takes no wind in comparison to anything else I have shot . This has been witnessed a good few times by many people . Terry Doe mirrors my thoughts on the gun .

    Thanks Gary for your kind words as ever .

    Trust me , this gun is Goooooood !

    LAity
     
  13. scutter

    scutter Aspiring to mediocrity

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    I just wanted to return all the kind things you have been saying about me Roger.
     
  14. Brian.Samson

    Brian.Samson Allowed in Sales Staff Member

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    That's a really interesting question actually ( well it is to me, some readers might want to stop reading this thread before it descends into a very technical ballistic theory type thread :) )

    This is a thread about ballistics though, so I make no apologies :D

    First off, what I should say is that there are very few cast iron known facts when it comes to airgun ballistics (which is what makes it so interesting), there are lots of unproven theories though - just be very careful not to quote an unproven theory as a fact and then make assumptions based on those 'facts' - that leads to ******** theories :)

    So my short answer to your question Gary is - I don't know the answer for a fact, but I have theories....

    What I do know to be a fact is that a pellet doesn't leave the barrel exactly the same as it went into the barrel - some of the changes are caused by the barrel itself (such as leaving rifling marks on the pellet) but some changes can be caused by the air delivery mechanism itself.

    In a PCP I don't think the air release is a single short burst of air (Tench or Jon Harris could probably confirm this), I think it's more a pulse of air or you could think of it as a wave of air followed by smaller waves as the hammer oscillates against the valve. I think that the shape of that oscillating waveform can have an effect on the changes to the shape of the pellet when it leaves the barrel and also on the final stability of the pellet in flight. (Which could be something to do with turbulent air, I have no idea)

    Just coming back to what Rich said, it's something I hear a lot of... "If the BC is so much better that you notice a gun takes less wind... wouldn't you also notice that the trajectory is much flatter too?"

    I've spent a bit of time playing around with the equations in the past year or so and what I've discovered is that it's quite possible to have a very noticeable difference in wind between two 'systems' (pellet/barrel/gun), with pretty much the same trajectory.

    Going back to the 40 yards, 40fps example that was given earlier, the windage difference is nearly half a mildot (quite noticeable) but the difference in impact is less than 4mm - not so easy to notice. That's in a 4mph wind, if you tested at say 6mph, the difference in drop would be the same (less than 4mm) but the difference in windage would be even more pronounced.

    Here's an interesting video that someone has posted on the Yellow Forum today :

    http://vid927.photobucket.com/albums/ad115/ocedummy/AA8.4Daystate_zpst9b5vgpg.mp4

    The first shot is the most interesting, it looks almost like 2 pellets have been fired, but in fact it's only one.
    That's an 8.4grn JSB shot at 965fps. I suspect, that if the MV was dropped you might not see such a pronounced spiral (or none at all) but what caused it? Was it the twist rate, the muzzle break or the air delivery system?

    I dunno :eek:o
     
  15. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    There's two projectiles there. Advancing it frame by frame you can see this, and the DOF blur change as they progress downrange is the same. If one was the shadow against the target then it would be sharp like the target. I believe the ret obscures the higher right hole made, you can almost just make it out. Without seeing better footage or the target it's hard to say, but either something fell apart or something was double loaded.

    As for wind bucking, we need side by side and proper tests to show this. Otherwise it's just a feeling. A feeling of being 2 1/4 MOA clicks out at 50m is noticable. It's a 1/4" or over 6mm or basically 1.5-2 pellet holes depending on the paper. In a light breeze that may seem like a lot less wind. However checking zero indoors cant removed, those two clicks become 2.5-3mm... some guns/people/pellets struggle to consistently group that tight to determine that.

    I'd start by proving the guns are zero'd and cant free indoors at 50m before moving out... and that they group well enough to determine the differences we're talking about.
     
  16. Brian.Samson

    Brian.Samson Allowed in Sales Staff Member

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  17. Yorkshiretea

    Yorkshiretea B Grade Bandit

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    Are you sure? You can see the pellet split and two points of impact Bri, right click on the MP4 and go thru the 30 fames at 3 second mark.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Yorkshiretea

    Yorkshiretea B Grade Bandit

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    Full screen with the threshold maxed you can clearly see two objects.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2015
  19. Brian.Samson

    Brian.Samson Allowed in Sales Staff Member

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    I can only assume the person who posted the video is telling the truth.. why would he lie?

    I guess it's possible for there to be some artifacts in the video stills - possibly caused by some issue in format conversion perhaps? So I wouldn't necessarily take a video still over someone's word.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2015
  20. Yorkshiretea

    Yorkshiretea B Grade Bandit

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    Artifacts that follow a spiral as if shot out of a gun :) Nothing to do with conversion that Bri, you can see it as plain as day mate, right click it and watch each frame.
     

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