Brian Samson's WTFT target checker

Discussion in 'Videos' started by RobF, Oct 27, 2015.

  1. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/EWow3p9kBmE?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    https://youtu.be/EWow3p9kBmE
     
  2. Ceathreamhnan

    Ceathreamhnan WHFTA Champion 2013

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    I'm slightly surprised to hear Brian say 'we've no real way of checking targets in a competition other than with fingers etc', surely he's heard that Pete Dutton has been making and supplying sprung target checkers calibrated at one ftlb energy for ukahft and other events for years?
     
  3. Brian.Samson

    Brian.Samson Allowed in Sales Staff Member

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    'We' being the WFTF

    This is for the "World Field Target Federation" to be used in the 37 countries in the Federation.

    I've seen Pete's target checkers, although I've never examined one or even held one it's the fact that they're used in the UKAHFT that give me confidence that the idea might work for the WFTF too.

    I also understand that Pete's production run's on his target checkers are limited (he's a busy chap) and with the likely demand coming in from 37 countries around the globe I didn't feel it was fair to suggest that Pete should make them all and I'm sure he wouldn't want to either.

    So part of the idea of this project is to allow anyone to make one for themselves for about £8 in parts and no international postage.

    it's just a horrible looking prototype at the moment, but now I have confidence in the device I'll give it a make-over to make it a bit more aesthetically pleasing.

    There will be 7 or 8 3D printed parts, the STL files for printing together with the source Solidworks design files will be "open source" meaning anyone can download them, anyone can print them and in addition anyone can edit the designs and if they like contribute to the further development of the device.

    There are some non-3D printed parts, but these are easily sourced around the globe and readily available at little cost. Couple of spings (one from a ballpoint pen) a few nuts and bolts and a length of 4mm steel bar.

    The 3D printed parts are designed to be printable without support structures on a low cost home 3D printer - you can literally press print, take the parts off the printer while they're still warm and with no further finishing required bolt the thing together.

    That's the idea anyway :D
     
  4. Ceathreamhnan

    Ceathreamhnan WHFTA Champion 2013

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    Sounds good to me. I think you are right about the Dutton production run, though they do seem to go missing so he has to make more ;)
     
  5. Ratinator

    Ratinator 77.74

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    it's just a horrible looking prototype at the moment, but now I have confidence in the device I'll give it a make-over to make it a bit more aesthetically pleasing.

    Next time i'm asked to check a target I will be sure to look for an aestetically pleasing stick ,that's if I don't have a 3D printed stick to hand.:D:D
    Top stuff Brian ,good to know someone is trying to level the playing field.
     
  6. Brian.Samson

    Brian.Samson Allowed in Sales Staff Member

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    It's a subject that's become quite dear to my heart now - I take it you remember the debacle in New Zealand at the WFTF World Championships where practically every target on the course malfunctioned on the first shot!

    The comment about poking with a stick was a bit of a reference to what happened this year in Lithuania. A target was called into question, it was ignored for a while and after repeated disputes a marshal was sent to 'check' the target. He picked up a fairly hefty stick, rammed it through the killzone and declared that it seemed alright to him :D

    The target was later replaced after it was proved by numerous shooters to be a defective target.

    I've also been appointed as the Head of the Marshalling committee for the WFTF and part of that role is to write some procedures and write and deliver a training course in Portugal next year. One thing missing was how do we (being the WFTF) check a target. There's no way I'm standing up in front of however many people in a conference hall and suggesting the recommended procedure is to find a stick and poke the target :eek: So I really needed to come up with a better solution.

    It's not my idea and it's certainly not a new one - this is a version of a target checker that Brad Troyer from the USA made about 8 years ago form a butchered Crossman 2240 pistol.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZjLZtA08DU&feature=youtu.be
     
  7. Ceathreamhnan

    Ceathreamhnan WHFTA Champion 2013

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    That could be a new sport for a rainy day - Speed Garage Pistol (H)FT ;)
     
  8. Dr_C

    Dr_C Member

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    Thinking of ergonomics

    You might want to add a lug or eyelet for a wrist strap, so the marshall can use both hands for the targets conveniently placed up a tree.

    C.
     
  9. Brian.Samson

    Brian.Samson Allowed in Sales Staff Member

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    Great idea! Thanks
     
  10. neilL

    neilL New Member

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    Looks really good for a prototype!
    How about a simple (and cheap) calibration rig to go with it? Something like a pendulum with an indicator arm (the sort that stays at the max swing when the arm swings back) so the fixed rod can be placed against a plate and the firing rod can then strike with a known max energy. Set so that the max energy is equivalent to a pellet landing at 50m which started with the max (e.g. 11.5ftlbs or whatever) e.g. your 5.5ftlbs.
     
  11. Yorkshiretea

    Yorkshiretea B Grade Bandit

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    Looks like a great idea Bri and love that it's open source, well done fella.
     
  12. Brian.Samson

    Brian.Samson Allowed in Sales Staff Member

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    Yup, some method of calibrating the device is definitely something that needs to be developed.

    Using a device to calibrate the kinetic energy is not the correct way to go though.

    The reason for that is to do with Momentum Impulse theorem and the differences between elastic and inelastic collisions. ;) So it's momentum and not kinetic energy that is the important measurement in the collision.

    It's an open source community project though, so anyone and everyone are very welcome to contribute - I'm not that great at theoretical physics having kinda stopped doing any of it when I left school 30 years ago, but I'm sure there are people around who know what they're talking about. Simon Ayres? - I bet he'd come up with a clever way to calibrate them.

    My current method is to calibrate by practical testing to make sure it gives the same results as shooting a killzone with a 5fpe pistol. The collision isn't the same, but I think I can get a close approximation of the effect by just fine tuning the power output. Once I've got the output about right and it produces the same results as a pistol, I can possibly use something to measure the momentum and use that figure as a benchmark to set up other devices.

    Ideally what I want is a really simple standard test that's cheap and doesn't need any specialist tools.
     
  13. Brian.Samson

    Brian.Samson Allowed in Sales Staff Member

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    Cheers bud :)
     
  14. mr dink

    mr dink Member

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    Well done Brian great idea i must say i didn,t know how much effect a leaning target would have on it falling over,i can see more targets getting called :D but in a major comp were the top are split by the odd target its a step in the right direction.
     
  15. AndyIoW

    AndyIoW Member

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    Looks interesting and like it would be used at all events as standard.

    Our club has used the Pete Dutton version to check our targets when we do a Winter League shoot in our region. Since then we have only had 3 whistles of which none were for target operation but strings getting caught up.

    It gives us confidence on the targets, however even if the targets work it can highlight any that are temperamental. The sparrow targets are the ones that seem to gave most issues to us.
     
  16. DEAN C.

    DEAN C. Steyr Convert

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    Hi Brian,

    Great idea and you should be applauded for doing this, and I think it will set the standards for years to come, worldwide.

    Just a thought but rather than involving momentum in calibrating, would simple pressure calcs not work ie P = Force over area? Would that not equate to a known Ft/lb energy or metric equivalent in KPa? You might be able to capture a max pressure reading on a gauge that way using some kind of small pneumatic linear actuator (sealed ram) for calibrating.

    This would take frontal area and mass x gravity into account or is there more to it? Maybe its my simplistic engineers head that might have missed something out, but well done anyway and I'll be interested in the results.

    Dean.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2015
  17. Brian.Samson

    Brian.Samson Allowed in Sales Staff Member

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    Actually it's funny you should say that because I discovered something unexpected when I was trying to set up the test for that video.

    In the video the target was angled down quite steeply (it probably was about 30 degrees but it looks like a lot more in a few scenes in the video). I was surprised at how steeply I needed to set the target for the test, I figured it would be about 10 degrees.

    What I found though was if I set the angle to be quite shallow - about 10 degrees, sometimes the pistol would knock the target down and sometimes it wouldn't. When I tested with the plunger, I got the same results, sometimes it would, sometimes it wouldn't. The difference was that I figured out when the plunger would and wouldn't take the target down and it was because of where on the paddle the plunger struck. If I hit it in the centre or at the top the target would go down, if I hit it at the bottom it wouldn't.

    I guess it must have been the same with the pistol, the difference being, I'm crap with a pistol and was just glad to get the pellet somewhere in the 40mm kill (usually at the bottom of the paddle to be honest because I had to hold over quite a bit for those shots and I didn't know how much I needed to hold over).

    Anyway.. for the purposes of making a video to show that the plunger worked when it should work and failed when it should fail, I didn't think it was a good idea to include a section where it only worked some of the time (still exactly the same result as the pistol, but much much harder to figure out how to prove that on video).

    So..... If you have an out of the box Gamo/BSA target and you don't set it up on the level - I think there's a good chance that sometimes it'll fail and usually when you don't hit the top of the paddle. Makes sense really I guess, I just wasn't expecting the device to be that accurate, it turns out it's more reliable than testing a target with a pistol, or at least it seems that way at this stage of testing. I guess the UKAHFT marshals who have been using Pete's checker for a while will already know that though.
     
  18. Brian.Samson

    Brian.Samson Allowed in Sales Staff Member

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    Yeah possibly Dean.

    The important thing (I think) is not to set the device up to deliver 5fpe of kinetic energy and assume that 5fpe of kinetic energy with a steel probe hitting a paddle will be exactly the same as 5fpe of kinetic energy of a pellet hitting a paddle. When a pellet hits the paddle it squashes flat - squashing a pellet flat uses energy, so the amount of kinetic energy transferred to the paddle will be quite different between the two types of collision.

    What I'm going to try to do is calibrate the device based on effect.. so calibrate it so that it has exactly the same effect as a pellet hitting the paddle, but not calibrate it so that it has the same Kinetic energy.

    Once I have that calibrated, then all I need to do is come up with a method of making sure other devices are delivering the same energy/momentum/force.. whatever it is we want to use as a benchmark really, I don't think it matters too much.

    There are two types of calibration I need to do though...

    Firstly, for the devices used at the Worlds I need those to be set up fairly accurately, so yeah, I could make sure the plunger/piston has the same mass and use a combro to make sure they have the same velocity and have reasonable confidence that all the devices would be about the same.

    But... for people just making them for use at their own local club, I probably need a far simpler, less expensive and possibly less accurate way of make sure they're putting out the same sort of momentum as the calibrated devices used at the Worlds.

    Cheap, Simple, Globally accessible, doesn't matter if it's not too accurate. (are Combro's a global thing or they mainly UK only?)
     
  19. Steyr

    Steyr New Member

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    That also happened at the Worlds where we first met Brian - I was looking ahead through the course watching the shooters take the up and coming ranges and most were very decent shots indeed. This one target wasn't going down for them and that got my attention.

    I was on with two other guys who shot first and they also failed to drop so I decided to call a marshal before I shot. It was indeed seized and I think the organisers gave a score or dropped the score for everyone as the majority of the field had been through by the time I called. The collective results for this target seemed to show a very high percentage of non dropped targets for shooters that were dropping much more challenging shots with aplomb.

    The other greats were Andy Calpin being followed by a Polish Wolf and Laity landing face first after too much jewish polish vodka at 99% proof.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2015
  20. wibblyb

    wibblyb Member

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    Target checker

    Why dont you use a low powered pistol ?
     

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