BFTA - help me define a kneeler.

Discussion in 'Hunter (HFT) & Field Target (FT)' started by Shaun, Dec 10, 2013.

  1. Shaun

    Shaun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2008
    Messages:
    1,816
    Location:
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Harriers
    Dear all,

    I was at the BFTA AGM when the new kneeling definition was agreed. It was voted 7 regions for and 1 abstention. It would be fair to consider that it was a strong endorsement of the definition. However, having read the kneeling thread it is clear that some people oppose the definition. So I thought I d ask STB readers to contribute to writing a kneeling definition.

    Bur first some points:
    1) I downloaded the ISSF rules and regulations; it extends to 466 pages. Whilst we would like FT to have minimal rules it seems to me that kneeling will need detailed definition because we want any readers to be clear of the definition.
    2) I think that we need a clear definition because it is fair that all shooters know that their competitors are shooting kneelers to the same definition.
    3) Kneelers should be more difficult. Next year s GP season will consist of 350 targets of which only 28 will be kneelers.
    4) Hopefully together we will write a definition to the satisfaction of all but if the other thread is an example of our differences then perhaps that s unlikely. We must all accept some compromise.
    5) If this process is successful then it will be sent as a proposal as a response to the outcome of the AGM. It would still require support from the regions.

    I ll start the ball rolling. Please add constructive comments, pull it apart and redefine etc. Then if there is a consensus then I will modify and repost the definition.
    Please know that I have no preference other than the desire to have a fair kneeling definition for the 2014 season.

    Shaun
     
  2. Shaun

    Shaun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2008
    Messages:
    1,816
    Location:
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Harriers
  3. BDL

    BDL Dangerous

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2013
    Messages:
    986
    Location:
    Ebbw Vale
    Club:
    Blaenau Gwent
    Kiss

    Looks fair to me Shaun, as they say keep it simple.

    The diagrams are easily to followed and should keep most happy, obviously some people like to complain for the hell of it.

    If you can please 50% of the people 50% of the time your'e onto a winner :)
     
  4. Strokebloke

    Strokebloke Mk3 Fanatic

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2013
    Messages:
    735
    Location:
    Northampton UK
    Club:
    SYWELL NTSC : FT : Greyhound : Kibworth
    I haven't read all of the thread on kneeling.
    I have read The Complete Works of Shakespeare, and The Ilead, both of which were more concise and easier to understand.
    You proposal seems very simple and effective.
    However, the issue remains - how will you police it ? And who will police ? And with what jurisdiction ? :)
     
  5. LittleJack

    LittleJack Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2010
    Messages:
    532
    Location:
    cwmbran, south wales
    Club:
    Blaenau Gwent
    It looks great to me Shaun, easy to follow can't go wrong. Is this the Olympic kneeling position?
    Jack
     
  6. Shaun

    Shaun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2008
    Messages:
    1,816
    Location:
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Harriers
    Now Jack you've hijacked my thread already :)

    But I'll answer your question.

    Having been at multiple meetings of the BFTA the cover all answer is "chief marshal". It never works.

    If the kneeling definition can avoid ambiguity then it will marshal itself.

    Originally the rule was about keeping the knee clean (the mat will do that and offer comfort from stones etc), offering ankle support (the ankle roll will do that).

    The mat being flat cannot be abused (if it can then please write how).
    The ankle roll can only support the ankle not any other part of the body.

    Shaun
     
  7. killen

    killen Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2012
    Messages:
    292
    Location:
    Telford but originally from Cumbria
    Club:
    Millride
    This could mean carrying a roll around as well as a seat bag and the rifle. :(
    Think I could be getting a bit overloaded here.
    I would like to suggest that a kneeler is where the shooter kneels in whatever position he is comfortable with, so long as the wrist is unsupported and the rear foot is near vertical. The seat bag position can be used in any way that makes the shooter comfortable; under the knee/under the knee and shin... whatever.
    The big advantage to this is that its much easier to police.
    Having tried this and the proposed way, there is little or no difference to the added difficulty of a kneeler shot. The proposed position is just a lot more uncomfortable (pain)
     
  8. ellis d

    ellis d Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    942
    Location:
    Leicester
    Club:
    Castle ftc
    Get rid of kneelers and put four 25mm reducers between 40 and 50 yards:eek: to be shot sitting, failing that the mat and roll for the ankle would get my vote, protection for the knee and support for the ankle.:).
     
  9. Strokebloke

    Strokebloke Mk3 Fanatic

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2013
    Messages:
    735
    Location:
    Northampton UK
    Club:
    SYWELL NTSC : FT : Greyhound : Kibworth
    I apologize, unreservedly. :eek:
    It looks excellent and has my full support. :)
     
  10. Shaun

    Shaun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2008
    Messages:
    1,816
    Location:
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Harriers
    Two posts and two Jacks.

    Hi Littlejack - when I looked at ISSF I was surprised to find that it does not state 3 points of contact but rather it states that the elbow must be in contact with the knee + or - a measurement. If you try this then it's clear that the elbow is the root of the wobble. Competitors are allowed to fold their foot. As we allow forearm contact then I think it's fair that we do not allow folding of the foot.

    Shaun
     
  11. LittleJack

    LittleJack Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2010
    Messages:
    532
    Location:
    cwmbran, south wales
    Club:
    Blaenau Gwent
    quite simple really. Put the rule up on a post in the kneeling lane. If your not doing it correctly you lose the point.
    If your a nice guy like me and someone is doing it wrong I've always let it go. This is where the rule in Germany was brilliant if someone in your group was doing the incorrect kneeling position and you didn't pull them up on it, all members of the group lose a point. You soon get some balls and put your foot down.
    Jack
     
  12. Shaun

    Shaun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2008
    Messages:
    1,816
    Location:
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Harriers
    Dave, perhaps you missed the line that said "the BFTA would provide the equipment"

    I believe others support the idea that the bag can be used for wider support. I can't because there must be something that makes kneeling different and more difficult than sitting.

    Shaun
     
  13. CoolId

    CoolId New Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2010
    Messages:
    129
    Shaun

    FWIW, I'll happily comply with your proposal

    Regards

    Dave
     
  14. killen

    killen Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2012
    Messages:
    292
    Location:
    Telford but originally from Cumbria
    Club:
    Millride
    Yes Shaun I did miss that, but I also miss more kneelers than sitters so they must be more difficult especially as they are not so far away. The added difficulty is there by the fact that the wrist is unsupported and the hand holding the rifle is flapping about.
    Anyway I am happier that some form of ankle support would be allowed. I think it unacceptable that I end up releasing a shot early as my ankle is starting to be painful; which is my excuse for missing the second kneeler at Sywell on Sunday. :rolleyes:
     
  15. fireblade

    fireblade Team AirArms

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2009
    Messages:
    715
    Location:
    liverpool
    Club:
    Tawd Vale FTC
    Hi Shaun
    The use of a roll to support the ankle was voted against at the recent BFTA meeting and was passed.
    Refer to page 8 and 9 of minutes on the BFTA site.
    Especially note page 9 section f where no extra support is allowed, merely the front edge of the seat to keep the knee clean.
    Your diagrams need to amended to exclude the use of a roll to support the ankle
     
  16. Brian.Samson

    Brian.Samson Allowed in Sales Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2009
    Messages:
    3,088
    Location:
    Doncaster
    Club:
    Pontefract, Doncaster Airgun Range
    That looks good to me Shaun, at least for the GP's
     
  17. CAC

    CAC Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2008
    Messages:
    266
    Location:
    Scotland
    Spot on Shaun , can't see anything wrong with that .... If people want their own kneeling roll would that be permitted ?
     
  18. fireblade

    fireblade Team AirArms

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2009
    Messages:
    715
    Location:
    liverpool
    Club:
    Tawd Vale FTC
    Brian please read previous post, everyone don't get excited over the ankle rolls because it wasn't passed at the meeting :rolleyes:
     
  19. Shaun

    Shaun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2008
    Messages:
    1,816
    Location:
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Harriers
    Dave/Paula
    It is the objection by many to the rule that leads me to search for a definition.

    My initial post refered to the proposal accepted by 7 regions of the BFTA and the subsequent disapproval by posters on the STB.

    It makes no odds to me other than a fair definition for all. If that proves to be the one defined at the AGM then so be it. However, I am not going to modify my proposed definition to the one from the AGM, that would be defeating the object.

    Shaun
     
  20. fireblade

    fireblade Team AirArms

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2009
    Messages:
    715
    Location:
    liverpool
    Club:
    Tawd Vale FTC
    Hi Shaun, Paula here

    I am not with you here.

    Surely the passed proposal from the recent AGM is the position you should be seeking to demonstrate.
    Instead it looks to me like another alternative is being discussed?? Is this for a future proposal at the next AGM??

    If not it's just confusing :confused::confused::confused:
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice