Average Ft course distance?

Discussion in 'Hunter (HFT) & Field Target (FT)' started by NJR 100, Mar 15, 2011.

  1. saddler

    saddler Member

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    If the results of a shoot are to be submitted to the BFTA Grading Officer for grading, then it must be run to the BFTA main shoot rules.
    If it's not, then as far as I'm aware, you can do what you want.
     
  2. Peter Montanez

    Peter Montanez Be Excellent!

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    Brad Troyer - American - programmer who produced STP

    http://www.airguns.net/software_downloads.php

    Excell course planner on this page
     
  3. NJR 100

    NJR 100 Because I`m AWESIME !!

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    indeed, which is why we can use 15 ml kills in wafta during the winter after a rule change in january, but not summer as those shoots are used for grading!
     
  4. NJR 100

    NJR 100 Because I`m AWESIME !!

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    So whats interesting, and whats not?
     
  5. Mr P

    Mr P Active Member

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    Shrugshoulders was an excellent course for the conditions prabably about 40 yard average target
     
  6. AndyIoW

    AndyIoW Active Member

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    Going to put my 2 penneth in.

    The courses I have helped set out for the various Winter Leagues over the years have tended to have an average of around 38yds. Weather and angles play a good part in it.

    Our club tends to start planning any course months in advance by looking at moving a firing line forward or even backwards looking for unusual target safe target positions, foilage that could cause misjudging of ranges and finally the ground itself with any trees and dips. Also balancing out the difficulty for left and right handers so if there is a lane that is uncomfortable for a lefty there will be one for a right handed shooter as well.

    I find the best courses are not those that are 'long' but those that you need to think a little before pulling the trigger. Subtle shifts in the targets on the lanes mean that you have to constantly think about wha the wind may do.

    For a GP course I think an average ditance over the whole course of around the 43-45yd mark is perfect if you have had to think about each lane. I personally, get very despondant when a course seems to have a majority of the targets over 45yds and welcome the introduction of the 15mm kills.
     
  7. Conor

    Conor Never been banned from sales Staff Member

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    The average distance of a GP course this season will come crashing down considerably.;)

    To get an average of 43-45yds using 10 reducers, two of which have to be under 25yrds. Every 40mm will neeed to be well over 45yrds, as you have also got 3x kneeling lanes of no more than 70yrds AND 2x standing lanes of no more than 60yrds.;)

    If you have a 8 or 9yrd target thrown in the average comes down even further. :eek:

    Its all aout a balance, angles and variety. Some conditions give rise to a longr course, whist others make for a shorter one:cool:
     
  8. Gibbs

    Gibbs New Member

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    I started shooting the GP's just to see more courses and harder targets and I saw some very clever courses last year. If I think about the hardest of last years targets, there were quite a few where they had created an optical illusion and made targets look further away than they were. You would expect all the top scopes to read the distance correctly and hit the target but the illusion put enough doubt in peoples minds for them to quietly ignore their scope and miss!
    Also the local ground conditions were put to full use, if you lit a bomfire on the course you might see some strange wind effects caused by the topography and vegetation and this can cause one target to take an inch of wind and the next (seemingly similar angle and distance) to take none.
    If the course can be set out in a fan shape then you could have left to right wind at the start and right to left at the end so you never have a fixed idea of how much wind the targets need. And cutting channels through the undergrowth perpendicular to the lanes (and out of sight of the firing line) causes almost invisble wind, which has been employed by the Dartmoor marksmen to full effect. The only downside to these course building tricks is that it gives quite a lot of advantage to the locals, who soon get to know the landscape and its effect on the wind.
     
  9. berty177

    berty177 Judge Diva

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    Course averages

    Due to a few comments made on this thread,

    I just had a look at roughly how I would set up a GP course myself using what I would have done before...

    Looking at the reducers and disciplines etc with 14 50+yarders and then varying the rest of the full kills, 12 within the 40yard area and some others just mixed in works out to be an average of 40.66 yards.

    That does seem low but it is only a 2-3 yard difference from the last GP course we put out in Nelson. So not a great amount of difference, if you use your ground to its full potential then you will get it right.

    In there is also an 8 yard 15mm kill lads to make sure it is what I am thinking of doing......

    I could make a few off the shots longer say have 16-17 50+ yarders etc. That wouldnt make it too stupid then would it. I will be looking at Nelson's ground over the next couple of months for the shooting line etc for the GP course.....


    Berty
     
  10. berty177

    berty177 Judge Diva

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    Fair courses

    If the course can be set out in a fan shape then you could have left to right wind at the start and right to left at the end so you never have a fixed idea of how much wind the targets need. And cutting channels through the undergrowth perpendicular to the lanes (and out of sight of the firing line) causes almost invisble wind, which has been employed by the Dartmoor marksmen to full effect. The only downside to these course building tricks is that it gives quite a lot of advantage to the locals, who soon get to know the landscape and its effect on the wind.[/QUOTE]

    This is a fair point,

    The only way around it is to build the course just for that GP, so say for instance a virgin bit of ground for a virgin course to be built on. You will Im sure use some of the same ground as before but changing the angle to the norm and ways like that take away the home advantage then...

    Thats the fairest way in my eyes.


    Berty
     
  11. AndyIoW

    AndyIoW Active Member

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    Yes our ground does this even on shorter targets as this years Winter Course proved to a few, Just ask RobF :rolleyes: . We have been tidying up some of our dead and fallen trees in our copse over the last few weekends and with a fire going you can see how strange the wind flows through.

    Did this some 10 years ago at one of our older grounds when the club was also called Vectis FTC. Suprising how much a pellet will move even at 30yds when wind is funnelled just ahead of the target and at the time pellets were being pushed over by half a kill.

    Prime 'tricks' that we tried and employ if possible are
    • Sheltered firing point
    • Target placed in a sheltered area after a open space in front
    • 'Tunnelling' a target to give the optical illusion of a target further away.
    • Targets on top of a mound were the wind may 'push' pellet higher than expected
    • Targets alongside a row bushes which cause the wind to 'swirl' a bit.

    Local knowledge can help at times but if the firing line is moved from the usual places this is negated.
     
  12. neilL

    neilL New Member

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    I can vouch for this during the Winter League. On one lane I was sat there with smoke from a small bonfire blowing right to left over me (wasn't choking but not far off it hahaha) but the pellet went straight to the aim point - which was to give windage based on the previous target in a similar location which did take wind... Other times the wind was in my face and the smoke went to annoy someone else! Always the problem in the winter - hardly any leaves around to show these things so mightily impressed by the AAs who read these courses so well. Evil but fun :)

    Cheers
    Neil
     
  13. NJR 100

    NJR 100 Because I`m AWESIME !!

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    Keep up old timer, i was asking how you judge whether a course was long, do you count all atrgets, or sitters only?

    I.e., i cam off Anston last year and thaught it was too long as alot of targets, sitters, seemd past +45y. Where as i came from Etl thinking the balance was better. sorry for picking on Anston.:)
    I do however like the vasriety we "HAD" in gp's. Its a concern for me that this year courses in as far as target length may become very simular this year? Time will tell?

    Yes, but how do you judge wether a course is long or not, all targets or sitters only? Be they full or reduced?

    Thanks Kilty

    Thats one way i suppose, but do you not consider when for example setting up a Nelson shoot the fact that most of the Wafta shooters will be B class and thus alot of long Targets will be off putting as they will be missed more?

    Is 35 yards a bad thing for a club / regional shoot?

    Glad you took up my suggestion and moved the targets down sunday. Neither of us are built for ladders Mike.
    Will need to cut the bramble back and make channels to the base of the trees for one or two, and get the East Devon see saw targets in place.
    I will fetch some stands up for the fields, think maybe 5 lanes in the field will allow some shots with angles.
    No point asking you about rang finding with that dodgy Luep of yours:p Should have Baught the S&B?

    Seemd a bit further to me, I made the long stander 40 ( i think) and even that needed 3 inches of wind, off kill. Pity i only gave 1:eek: would have thaught 45 was average?
    So do you look at all kills as a course average length, or sitter only Mr.P?

    Indeed, be interesting to see how each gp is. I take it you count all targets Connoe when considering if a course, Gp or national was long or short?
     
  14. berty177

    berty177 Judge Diva

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    Youve lost me now Simon

    Simon,

    Are you talking about the Nelson courses in general or just the GP, as in your own words a GP course MUST be to a harder standard for the people who attend to shoot them???

    I made the course to a standard that everyone would enjoy the course, suprisingly you said it was too hard but the comments that were passed to myself and all the other members who helped set up was superb.

    Maybe we should make it easier for the lads that You have been speaking to then bud? Thats how it is coming across to me fella.......

    We never set up a stupidly ridiculously hard course as the ground does alot of the work for us. There is no need then to kill people with a ridiculous course.....


    Berty
     
  15. NJR 100

    NJR 100 Because I`m AWESIME !!

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    Any course really, the question is how do you judge if a course was long or not, as a shooter. Do you count all targets or only sitters.
    Personally I know standers and kneelers will be shorter ranges, same for reduces. Thing is, you dont usually see alot of reducers. Thats changing at gp level yes.

    So usually I come off a course and if i think there were alot of long full kills, its seemd like a long course to me. I think thats how i judged the last Nelson gp?
    Its just nice now and then to see 20+ + 30+ full size kills?

    Simon
     
  16. rich

    rich Active Member

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    If you have a look at the Shebbear club ground (http://www.shebbearshooters.co.uk/ and click on peek at our ground) you'll see how the 40 shot permanent course used to look, a year or so ago. The average target distance was 38 yards. Five targets over 50 yards. Two 25mm kills past 35 yards. A 15mm kneeler at a shade under 20 yards. The highest ever score was 38 ex 40 and that was only done once. So I'm personally not an advocate of particularly long courses to achieve difficulty.
     
  17. mikewills8904

    mikewills8904 walthers last the course

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    Scope

    No point asking you about rang finding with that dodgy Luep of yours Should have Baught the S&B?

    SIMON .. WHO SAYS I HAVENT BOUGHT A S&B .

    YOU WILL ALL HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE :D
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2011
  18. Gibbs

    Gibbs New Member

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    Simon,
    To answer your question, I would judge a course by all the targets on it.
     
  19. berty177

    berty177 Judge Diva

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    Simon,

    There was only 12 50+ yarders at Neslon 2 years ago bud. Might have been a few good targets at 40+ as well, we did also have full kills in the 20 yard range and 30 yard range???


    Thats why the average wasnt too high bud......


    Berty
     
  20. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    When i managed to put my scope 5yds out at Davey's scottish GP, it didn't feel that long. Yet there have been other courses that have been short and felt tough, where i've been thinking about anything beyond 30yds being tricky... sometimes due to wind, sometimes due to their mixed exposure to the wind.
     

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