Anyone have an LG100/110 transfer port washer?

Discussion in 'Hunter (HFT) & Field Target (FT)' started by AirArmsDavid, Jan 2, 2012.

  1. AirArmsDavid

    AirArmsDavid Member

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    :confused:

    Just took my LG100 to bits for the first time in five years and noticed the thin plastic 'distance washer', under the green/black transfer port, is split. As here, at 2:35: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbYcgWkagD0&lr=1&user=steyrsportwaffen

    No doubt this would be £10 from Harry, so does anyone have a cheaper one, or a cheaper source?

    By the way, it was almost perfectly clean inside, having used it at least once a month for comps over the past three years. Only thing needing adjustment was the stabiliser position: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKIDoJj3xr8&lr=1&user=steyrsportwaffen

    Many thanks for any help!

    David
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2012
  2. chrispro97

    chrispro97 New Member

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    distance washer,is not needed only ever seen them on 10 metre guns ive just changed a port on a brand new gun just b4 xmas and their woz not fitted,my brand new 1 never had 1 fitted,and all guns ive serviced ive never seen any,only ever seen 1 on a 10metre gun matey,
     
  3. AirArmsDavid

    AirArmsDavid Member

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    Thanks for info Chris.
    Why would it sometimes be needed and sometimes not?
    I guess it gives just that little bit more sealing pressure as the stabiliser comes forward and seals, so logically a higher pressure rifle would perhaps need one, not lower?
    Just trying to figure out what it does!?

    :)
     
  4. Tench

    Tench WHFTA World Champion 2016.

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    Hi David, what i do with these is to very lightly oil the o ring wipe it almost dry then close the breech while trapping a ciggy paper between the oring and shuttle, you can then tug the ciggy paper gently to see if it is trapped evenly at the front back and sides, then open the breech, even sealing pressure will leave a consistent width imprint on the paper. If the paper can be moved when trapped you need the washer to lift the port up. A little bit more sealing pressure can be found by moving the barrel forward a few thou but this does reduce the positiveness of the breech lock.

    Cheers Simon.
     
  5. nemesis

    nemesis 55yrd standing expert, or was it 8 or 9?

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    The reason for the washer is to raise the height of the transfer port to make a seal against the muzzle tube,it depends on how it leaves the factory.It is that thin it can only be used once,as it compresses and becomes damaged.
    The best thing to use is PTFE tape,only wrap it around the transfer port once.After you have done this,load the gun with a pellet in.Now apply talcom powder along both sides of the transfer port and also around the top edge,now fire thr gun.Any evidence of a leak will be instantly seen,it's better if you do this with the scope off.After you have done this remove the remaining powder using a vacum cleaner.If it hasn't sealed,then remove the PTFE tape and wrap it around twice,keep doing it untill it seals.Once you have obtained a seal check that the muzzle tube passes over the port without any resistance,then LIGHTLY lube the green o ring.
    Hope this is of help to you.
    Forgot to say,don't apply the PTFE tape to the thread ,twist the tape first untill it looks like string,then wrap it around the top where the thread starts.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2012
  6. merc350

    merc350 Just wants to shoot...

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    just stripped and serviced mine and it didn't have the washer either:)
     
  7. CameronWilson

    CameronWilson Member

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    The black transfer ports fitted to the early LG100s were fractionally thinner than the subsequent revisions, and required a number of the clear washers in order to create a friction fit with the underside of the bolt. As has been correctly pointed out above, the number of spacers required will vary from rifle to rifle, and was fettled at the factory. Most first revision LG100s (Steyr barley twist barrel & a single retaining grub screw) will have these clear spacers installed. Both of my LG100s had two, each. As a rule of thumb, generally the second revision LG100s (Anschutz barrel & two retaining grub screws) are spacer-less.

    The problem with this design (I'd say it's the second biggest problem with the LG100/110) is that you need to unscrew the transfer port in order to adjust it to the correct (friction fit) height - but unfortunately unscrewing it also loosens it, and it's not uncommon for the transfer port to creep up further during repeated firing cycles. The first symptom of this is that the bolt requires more and more pressure to close properly. Eventually it won't close at all. A quick inspection will reveal that the transfer port has unscrewed too high, and simply screwing it back in will solve the problem. I mark the green O-ring with a permanent marker, to ensure its correct orientation.

    There is also a method of rebuilding the rifle, whereby the transfer port is installed loose, to the correct height, and the bolt is closed BEFORE the final two bolts are nipped-up. Closing the bolt in this fashion causes the whole of the trigger block to move back fractionally before it is nipped-up, and as a result the transfer port is scissored insitu between the trigger block and the chassis. This method certainly stops the transfer port from unscrewing further during the firing cycle, and because it results in a 'squarer' build it can often yield a smoother cocking stroke, but it relies on putting pressure on both the thread inside the trigger block and the chassis - probably the two most expensive components within the rifle!

    I've approached Steyr concerning several LG110 product design enhancements that I have conceptualised (including a design that would add very little to the total BOM, and which would completely remove this very problem), but I'm still waiting on them getting back to me.

    At the very least I'd like an all-expenses-paid tour of the assembly plant!

    :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2012
  8. merc350

    merc350 Just wants to shoot...

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    Whats the biggest?:confused:
     
  9. CameronWilson

    CameronWilson Member

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    In a word, consistency.

    Excellent rifles, really well thought out, and really well made. Perfect for their original purpose.

    But the FT/HP/Hunter variants are basically re-purposed 10m rifles, and as such they aren't really designed to maintain any level of consistency over any length of time.* Think of Steyrs as the equivalent of a Stradivarius - beyond reproach yes, but you'd probably still want to make sure that they are in tune before the big event. This is not a problem for 10m shooters who will expect to have to tweak their rifles back into line on the day of the shoot. It is however a problem if you expect to be able to set your rifle up perfectly, sling it in the back of the mini-bus, and then rock-up to an away shoot without having to strip it down/zero it again (which is effectively what the 10m guys have time to do).

    We've had fellow club members who've setup their Steyrs in Scotland, travelled down south to M.A.D., and their rifles have been all over the shop. Those in-the-know generally recommend setting a Steyr to 11.0ftlbs for complete peace of mind - that's quite a margin of error!

    To be fair it's not a problem exclusive to the Steyr. I'm led to believe that all of the 10m Super Guns suffer from it to some degree or another. But for my money it's the biggest concern for FT/HFT shooters who don't always have the luxury of being able to fettle their rifles before a shoot.



    * a tip of the hat to the very knowledgeable Mr. Khalid Rafiq who took the time to explain to me why this happens to be the case.
     
  10. CameronWilson

    CameronWilson Member

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    I've never claimed to be a Steyr expert - there have been a lot of things along the way which appeared to be true at the time, or at very best were true in a very narrow window of observation - but I'm now on my 9th Steyr and like any other rifle they do have 'characteristics' that you become attuned to.

    One of these days I hope to be able to master the dark-art of Stabilizer adjustment - getting consistent 'recoiless' shots certainly isn't as simple as it's made out on the videos. On a 6ftlb 10m match rifle that weighs a tonne maybe, but not on an 11ftlb HFT rifle.

    So if anybody has any Voodoo Ninja Stabilizer Secrets they'd like to share, PM me.

    Sorry, I've kind of hijacked this thread a bit!

    :)
     
  11. merc350

    merc350 Just wants to shoot...

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    If you have had 9 you will have a good idea of the guns.

    I love getting and tuning so this doesn't worry me. However what exactly needs to be retuned during strip down if the gun goes off whack?

    Very interested
     
  12. CameronWilson

    CameronWilson Member

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    One of the things I love most about owning a Steyr is the constant tweaking and tuning. When they are on-song they really are a beautiful rifle to shoot. I also love how modular they are. A lot of the guys who really know their Steyrs, will strip them down and clean the exhaust valve stem every 200 shots or so, just to ensure that everything is perfect. You could argue that it's totally unnecessary, but I guess it's the same as constantly striving to get an even sharper edge on your knife, or polishing the chrome work on your Harley Davidson!

    I find that shot to shot consistency in relation to the 'baseline' is very good. I generally achieve +/-10fps spread with unweighed pellets, but I've heard some others claiming that they've got it down to +/- 3fps spread. Where the problem occurs, is when that 'baseline' shifts – and this is caused by variations in temperature. In Edinburgh, a rifle which produces sub 12ftlb in summer can drop to below 10ftlb in the winter.

    What you will experience is a shift in the output power, together with a respective shift in the pellet impact and the aim points throughout the trajectory. If you're lucky enough to have access to a decent chrono the output power is easy enough to bring back to where you want it, and you can then re-zero the rifle. An external power adjuster is the obvious solution, but there again current thinking discourages that. The HP and Hunter stocks are easy enough to work with, but the FT stock is an absolute nightmare.

    But regardless, if you are attending an 'away' FT or HFT shoot, chances are you won't have the luxury of honing the rifle, and you'll have to make the best of the situation. This is where the really good shots shine - they can take a rifle which isn't pellet on pellet, and still lift the silverware. I was lucky enough to shoot a couple of courses with Chris Cundey last summer, and he was kind enough to try shooting my Steyr Hunter that I wasn't completely confident in - he diplomatically demonstrated that it wasn't the arrows, but the Indian that was at fault!
     
  13. merc350

    merc350 Just wants to shoot...

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    Chris has been my mentor over the last few weeks and without him i wouldn't have gone into air rifle shooting. He is a thoroughly decent bloke and also a cracking shot to boot. We are very lucky to have him at the club:)
     
  14. AirArmsDavid

    AirArmsDavid Member

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    Thanks Simon, I'll give that a try.

    Surely moving the barrel forward will result in a little bit less sealing at the transfer port as the stabiliser will be further away/back from it? Also, the cocking lever wouldn't lock and the seal inside the stabiliser would exert less pressure on the barrel end? Am I missing something in how the mechanism works?

    :confused:
     
  15. AirArmsDavid

    AirArmsDavid Member

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    Cam, perhaps I've been lucky with mine. Since I bought it three years ago, and used it in .22 guise for most of that time, I've never had to re-zero it. I check it, sure, but it's always remained constantly on zero for those three years.

    It's a two screw barrel model, and had the thin plastic washer under the black transfer port, now split.

    When re-assembled the rear of the stabiliser wasn't shifting back to the recommended position and it took maybe 20 goes at repositioning the spring adjuster screw inside the stabiliser until I got it right. Not sure what difference this slightly longer rearwards movement will make? I guess it's supposed to make it recoil less.

    Other than that, the valve stem was completely clean and there was just a little dust around the transfer port and inside the trigger block/stabiliser housing.

    I only cleaned it as I'd taken the scope and .22 barrel off to try a .177 BSA Hornet barrel I'd recently acquired from John Bowkett and had machined to fit last week by u.k.neil. My .22 BSA Hornet barrel seems extremly accurate and I wanted to try the .177 version against my barley twist to see which is the better.

    I did a test, of sorts, Saturday and the barley twist seemed to be the better of the two. But then I realised the BSA barrel may have been brand new and thought the comparison may be unfair. So I've since cleaned both so as to start another test on equal footing. The BSA was actually very dirty inside, so I guess not new after all!

    I'll now re-lead both barrels and see which is more accurate.

    Will give Simon's ciggy paper test a go first to check sealing is all OK.

    :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2012
  16. CameronWilson

    CameronWilson Member

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    Good stuff.

    For rifles with a black transfer port:

    The set screw within the Stabilizer spring determines the force that the Stabilizer exerts upon its release. Remember to replace the split O-ring on the set screw shaft before you reinsert it into the Stabilizer body, otherwise the two will separate and you'll need to strip the rifle again.

    I've done that before.

    :(

    The ideal, is that the Stabilizer exerts the same pressure as the recoiling chassis, and therefore they cancel each other out. If you cock an empty rifle, and then press down on the Stabilizer release catch (the thin black metal component on the top of the bolt, above where the transfer port would be) you'll feel the chassis moving slightly forward. This is the nature of the isolated force that the Stabilizer exerts - without the force that the propelling air exerts during a normal firing cycle.

    If the set screw is positioned too far in, the gun will recoil like a regular air rifle. If it is set too far out it can actually recoil forward very slightly.

    Steyr themselves told me that the Stabilizer works best when completely dry – i.e. no lubricant. I'm unsure if the travel position shown on the videos is just for the 6ftlb versions, as all of my rifles seemed to work better if the Stabilizer continued its travel slightly further. Certainly the rifles in the videos appear to have diopter sights installed, which would suggest that they are 6ftlb 10m rifles.

    It's also important to actually fire pellets when you're attempting to set the Stabilizer, as the rifle recoils differently when there isn't a pellet in the barrel. After a while you'll become attuned to how the Stabilizer is working and you'll be able to feel the difference between different weights of pellets and even their head sizes. Likewise, if you haven't cleaned the barrel in a while you'll also feel the rifle kicking slightly more.

    For rifles with a silver transfer port:

    These are trickier to set up, and I've never quite managed to get them to be just as recoilless as rifles with black transfer ports. Basically the reduced aperture within the silver transfer port (3mm as opposed to 4.5mm) isn't as efficient at letting the air flow through it as the black transfer port, and you actually have to put roughly about 18ftlbs of air through it in order to achieve 12ftlbs worth of thrust behind the pellet. The additional 6ftlbs of air jets from the end of the barrel after the pellet has exited. This additional 6ftlbs worth of surplus air, has absolutely no effect on the pellet itself (still sub-12ftlbs at the chrono), but continues to act on the chassis after the Stabilizer has finished doing its thing. As a result, the position of the Stabilizer set screw can have very little effect on rifles which have a silver transfer port installed.

    It's this surplus 6ftlbs of air, which accounts for the significant drop in shot count in rifles with silver transfer ports. They're also quite a bit louder.

    REMEMBER - NEVER SIMPLY SWAP OUT A SILVER TRANSFER PORT FOR A BLACK ONE - GET SOMEONE WHO KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING TO DO IT FOR YOU - IT'S NOT AS SIMPLE AS A LIKE-FOR-LIKE SWAP OUT.

    The regulator pressure also has a significant effect on how the gun behaves during the firing cycle. It'll take quite a bit of experimentation to get the various different settings spot on (but it's worth it). For me, my LG100 with Barley Twist barrel likes a 100bar reg (the original higher reg. pressure that the High Power takes its name from), a black transfer port and 11ftlbs on the chrono with JSB Exact Express.

    And one final thing, if you use the dry firing facility on the LG100/110 to practise your trigger technique, remember to manually release the Stabilizer catch before you put it back into storage. It's actually the air travelling through the transfer port and bolt which releases the Stabilizer during the firing cycle - but if you're dry firing the Stabilizer never actually releases. I'm convinced that if you put the rifle away with the Stabilizer spring compressed, the spring loses strength (in a similar fashion to the main spring in a cocked springer).
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2012
  17. AirArmsDavid

    AirArmsDavid Member

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    Yes, I found the split O-ring remained in the spring tube after a couple of removals. It was sideways on so I had to make a tool to poke in and remove it (wire with bent end). Once screw adjusted the O-ring is placed onto it before reinserting. And repeat!

    I've just emailed Ernst Huber, Chief Technical Officer at Steyr to ask about the different stabiliser setting for 6 and 12 ft lb models and whether firing a pellet should give the same end position as the adjustment process.

    Will let you know what he says.

    ;)
     
  18. CameronWilson

    CameronWilson Member

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    Nice one.

    I have to say the guys at Steyr are very good at getting back to you.

    I'm interested to hear what they say!
     
  19. AirArmsDavid

    AirArmsDavid Member

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    Here are my questions, and Ernst's reply:

    Hi Ernst,

    I have watched the video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKIDoJj3xr8&lr=1&user=steyrsportwaffen

    I have set the stabiliser spring adjuster on my 16 joule LG100 (with black transfer port) so that the rear of the stabliser is flush with the housing, as described in the video, but I have several questions:

    1) The rifle shown appears to be a 7.5 Joule model. Is this setting also correct for the 16 joule model?

    2) This adjustment is done without firing the rifle. When firing a pellet, should the position of the rear of the stabiliser be the same as when adjusting it without firing, as in the video?

    3) My LG100 S/N 2098 has a 'distance washer' under the black transfer port. It is split and I don't know whether I need to replace it or not. What would you suggest?

    Many thanks for any help.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Dear David,

    1) Yes.
    2) Doesn’t matter. The stabiliser must go same way with pellet or without.
    3) We used the distance washer when under the bolt blows too much air out in the case you use the rifle with rear shoot. It’s not so important for the accuracy.

    Best regards

    Ernst Franz Huber

    Serviceleitung / Chief Technical Service
    STEYR SPORT GmbH
    Olympiastraße 1, A-4432 Ernsthofen, Austria

    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

    I've gone back with:

    Hi Ernst,
    Thanks for the info.
    Not sure what you mean in answer (3) by "rear shoot"? Could you explain more please?
    Many thanks.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    He's come back with:

    Hi David,

    It means you use your gun with pellet and shoot. In same time, you feel some air leaking from the transfer port.

    Best regards
    Ernst Franz Huber
    Serviceleitung / Chief Technical Service
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2012

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