Anti-tamper

Discussion in 'General Airgun Chat' started by RobF, Apr 28, 2009.

?

If AT was fitted to a new gun you were really considering for target shooting...

  1. Would you buy it regardless?

    30 vote(s)
    25.6%
  2. Would you buy it only if you could get it removed?

    43 vote(s)
    36.8%
  3. Would you buy another gun without it instead?

    24 vote(s)
    20.5%
  4. Would you buy another 2nd hand gun without it instead?

    12 vote(s)
    10.3%
  5. Would you delay the purchase and look for other options?

    8 vote(s)
    6.8%
  1. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    Seems topical at the moment.

    It's a private poll... no names are recorded.
     
  2. villiers

    villiers Self appointed antipimp

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    Voted

    Simply buy a Walther Dominator new or second hand:).
     
  3. Adam

    Adam Active Member

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    I'd buy it if I was confident the power would not shift* and it would not go over with different pellets, and it probably it was not a gun I was intending to use for serious competition. Apart from that I would buy a gun without AT, either secondhand or from overseas**.

    * I would not mind if it was only doing 10 ft.lbs out of the box if it was going to climb but once run in I'd expect it to be legal with all "normal" pellets. The piledrivers are a fly in the ointment, but I've read Hugh Earl has obtained assurances from several forces that they will not use those for forensic testing.

    Surely it is not beyond the wit of man to design regulators, hammers and ports that will deliver consistent energy regardless of pellet mass (within reasonable tolerances). Pellet fit is always outside the control of the manufacturers, but they can assume optimum fit. Too loose or too tight will produce lower energies anyway.

    ** There has been talk of closing this loophole and forcing overseas manufacturers to fit AT. Well they can enforce that for official importers, but EU rules forbid them from stopping grey imports. The only way they could prevent someone importing say an adjustable FT gun from Germany would be to legislate and actually ban non-AT PCPs or make them section 1.
     
  4. MojoCrow

    MojoCrow New Member

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    Well i bought an AT S400 Carbine .177 (new) last week and it is currently back at Air Arms to sort out a leak by the fill gauge. I have asked them to check the power and adjust accordingly if it's low (apparently they always check the power after working on a gun anyway). It will be interesting to see what power it's doing once i've got it back.

    As far as AT goes, if i'm buying new then AT goes with the territory and i'll expect the manufacurer to sort any problems.

    Non AT, whether pre or AT removed, have the absolute advantage of the responsible owner being able to take care of any power creep. I've seen fellas checking their rifles before the WHFT shoot at Kelmarsh and finding that their rifles were either uncomfortably close (within .1-.2 ft/lb) to the limit or had crept over (by a smidgin).

    I had a customer with a pre-AT S16 who brought it into the shop for a service. After i had returned it to Logun i had a phone call from Logun who informed me that the hammer spring had been pre-loaded with washers and it was over the limit. I said that as far as i was aware the customer wasn't an FAC holder and the result of that was Logun lowering the power back to a legal level and making the rifle AT.

    On the other hand, I have a customer who seems to bring out the power in a rifle just by looking at it:eek:. It really is uncanny how a rifle goes over the limit in his presence. He's had a Supersport returned to BSA for a new main spring and after it had been returned, we tested it and it was doing about 13-14 ft/lb! Another rifle he like the look of (Webley Blackhawk) and we tested it for power (he knows what happens with his luck now:D) and it was producing about 13.4 ft/lb. That got sent straight back to the supplier!
     
  5. raygun

    raygun Non member

    I'm now hanging on to the rifles I've already got.

    I will not have a rifle that I can't be responsible for the power output and unfortunately that rules out all U.K. manufacturers.
    I guess pressure will be brought to bear on foreign manufacturers that are selling here and I also expect some will decide not to sell into the U.K.

    For the likes of Anschutz, FWB, Walther and maybe also Steyr it will be difficult to justify the cost of AT.
    A submitted rifle and the cost of testing would be around £2000/ £2500, plus 3 rifles selected from dealers per year bring the costs to around the £8000 per year mark. They will have to sell quite a few units to recover that.
    This type of rifle in my view has to be adjustable, even if it's down from 12 FPE.

    The decision is likely to be no German/Austrian target type rifles available.(My view).

    ATB
    Ray.
     
  6. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    I'm speculating out of my depth, but that wouldn't that surely require a change in the law to make non-AT rifles illegal to sell or modify/remove AT?
     
  7. raygun

    raygun Non member

    Hi Rob,
    It's already being done.

    Pressure will be put on the foreign manufacturers to comply with the AT system (although not legally required). Obviously HW do it through Hull Cartridge (who are members of AMTA).

    Whether this falls foul of EU laws I don't know but it's certainly restrictive practice. There is a threat to the AA and Daystate offerings from foreign manufacturers. Who would shoot with a 10.5 FPE EV2 against a Walther shooting at 11.5 FPE ?

    The last time U.K. manufacturers had anything to do with the law we got the 12 FPE limit. Now we apparently are not responsible enough to ensure our rifles don't go above the 12 FPE limit.

    ATB
    Ray.
     
  8. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    It could be that HW's stance is voluntary, or in part to do with their agreements with HC.

    I can see more problems with changing the law, than the status quo. I'm not sure the trade is that worried about a small amount of target guns... and there would be fun and games with grey imports anyway... foreign visitors wouldn't have them fitted.

    The perception of power is a double edged sword. On the one hand you have the debate about what's wrong with 10.5 anyway etc... but on the other, it kind of open the can of worms that a manufacturer is expecting up to 1.5 ft-lb variation.

    It will be interesting to see what comes out of the meeting, as I think a lot of air could do with a clear :)
     
  9. raygun

    raygun Non member

    Hi Rob,

    I don't expect anything to come out of the meeting, if it takes place. Unless there are no restrictions on "reporting back" I see no point. I would not expect anyone to believe me if I said all was O.K.

    Steyr are already being leaned on, probably because they are the biggest importer. I would be interested to hear just what tale was related to HW to make them fit the daddy of all anti-tamper :D

    I just can't see anyone being competitive in either FT or HFT if they're 1 to 1.5 FPE down on other competitors.

    The hunting side has even more to fear if any anti hunting lobby gets to hear about "low power" airguns being used for hunting.

    I think all our pre AT guns have just gone up in value :D
    ATB
    Ray.
     
  10. RobF

    RobF Administrator Staff Member

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    True. I know one shooter who bought another make of FT gun because of AT, and it's possible retrofitting...

    For what it's worth, depending on what bracket of pellet weight i'm using, i'm shooting at 11 to 11.4. I've been down as low as 10.3 though, before I set it up for the lighter ammo.

    I could wind it upanother 20 fps, which would take me up to 11.8/9, but it's too close to the comp limit for my liking... and the overal effect is (according to chairgun), only a click lost at 55 yds and in a 10mph wind i have 5mm off less. Given that I'd be having to give it 150mm anyway, it's not all it's cracked up to be this limit shaving ;)
     
  11. raygun

    raygun Non member

    Hi Rob,

    Your post just reflects why you should be able to set your gun to YOUR required parameters. To have a rifle that is fixed stops you setting your rig to your requirements. Not everyone wants to run at 11.99 FPE just as not everyone wants to run at 10.1 FPE. What you should be able to do is run at the power/speed that you are comfortable with.

    You should also be able to set your rifle to the "conditions" on the day to ensure you don't fail the chrono.

    AT stops that.

    ATB
    Ray.
     
  12. raygun

    raygun Non member

    It now looks like Steyr will not fit AT so I would presume that the other foreign manufacturers of "Target" rifles will not either.

    A prime requirement of these type of rifles has to be the ability to set the power as you like (within the law).
    This is a must for competition.( you have to be sure you can pass the chrono, if nothing else)

    It will be interesting to see how the EV2 fares when owners realise the only way they can set them up regards power is to void the Warranty they've paid for.

    ATB
    Ray
     
  13. nurse boob

    nurse boob Non member

    AMTA shysters

    AMTA is not an official body and to date cannot provide anything in print from the Home Office regarding AT. This is a blatant attempt at forcing legislative creep and frankly the worst thing for the airgunning public.I sincereley hope that Steyr etc don't submit to what is bullying and proceed against AMTA and its threats via the Courts.

    We have enough to deal withkeeping our sport at its current level without those seeking personal commercial benifit attempting to force extra restrictions upon us.

    Shame on them.:mad:
     
  14. Ste Hughes

    Ste Hughes Daystate's whipping boy

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    i cant see how any airgunner would want AT in place

    i cannot see a single advantage of it from either side

    if people want to turn guns up its not hard to remove on most guns and it will happen if guns have AT fitted or not

    i would love to know the AMTA's reason on how its a good thing

    i would support a AT where you can adjust the gun just not over 12 ftlbs (if it was possible) but not this

    this is a joke and i wont touch any gun with it fitted - i know plenty of people with this view so if anything all the AMTA is doing is putting a dent in the numbers of new guns bought :confused:

    i have a feeling it was brought in to stop foreign guns being imported and 'take out' the opposition, ie steyr's and walthers but thats me ;)
     
  15. clubshot

    clubshot Member

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    It is the View of many of Us

    That Shooters Do not want AT Fitted

    The Joke is the majority are not aware it is fitted

    As Far as aware No AMTA Members put on Visable Stickers
    Or advise Owners that it is fitted in Litrature supplied with their Gun or on their web sites

    The Joke is that with the Power Sealed by Manufactures
    The Gun/s could still exceed Sub12FP Power limit

    Yet the owner is Ultimatly responsible for Exceeding the Sub 12FP Rule

    And the Subject is total forbidden on most Forum Boards

    On Grounds that it will damage the Sport by discussing it..................

    BOB/R
     
  16. nurse boob

    nurse boob Non member

    all guns

    I will say it again: AMTA has no official standing or legal remit to force anyone to comply with their demands.

    Shooters need to get heard on this via their respective organisations before AMTA succeed in getting further legislation introduced on our behalf.

    [Edited: Pm sent]
     
  17. clubshot

    clubshot Member

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    As well covered / reported

    AMTA never involved anyone else than it's Members

    BASC - was asked - never invite or advised

    Was talk of a Meeting with Respected Board Members and AMTA
    understood it never took place

    As brief that nothing was to be reported back from meeting

    Word is now awaiting a Test Case - to see if it's legal

    BOB/R
     
  18. Kingplinker

    Kingplinker " Horsham HFT champion 2010 "... apparently...

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    A friend of mine bought a new gun which was way over the limit , he sent it back and had to wait six weeks to get it back !

    We took it out for a test and believe it or not it was over again - by this time he was thoroughly fed up with the gun so had the AT removed by a clever bloke he knows :D I think its absurb that guns can still leave the factory over the limit , the problem with AT is that its not being backed up by the manufacturers which leads to dissatisfied customers waiting to have new guns de - tuned .

    I would not buy an AT gun , I recently did a lot of work on my guns and one was just over on some shots so a quick tweak put it back under again .



    The problem here ( as rightly pointed out by a Mr Doe ) is that if you can turn it down you can also turn it up . Thats the sad truth .

    Dave
     
  19. raygun

    raygun Non member

    The truth is that there hasn't been an airgun made that if you were determined enough you couldn't raise the power.

    The SAD truth is that instead of using the raft of existing legislation available the Government gives the nod to these type of offences.

    AT does nothing to stop someone increasing the power of a PCP. What it does do is, if removed absolves the manufacturer of any responsibility for Warranty, so a gain there. If left on, an opportunity to charge you more for work done.

    Why has no manufacturer told their customers about AT ?

    Why has no manufacturer told their customers what their rights are in relation to power resetting, and how long for ?

    Can't be much of a secret as Google knows all about it :D

    ATB
    Ray.
     
  20. Weevie

    Weevie Banned

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    Not quite so, or not quite so within reason.

    Steyr (I am reliably informed) are now engineering their guns so that they can be adjusted below 12 FPE but not above (and when I say adjusted I mean without the use of an engineering workshop).

    Now even with Steyr's brilliance I suspect that it might be possible, using the correct pellet to get maybe at most 12.5 or 13 FPE out but that's hardly the 'significant increases' that the firearms consultative committee were concerned about, this concern leading supposedly to the introudction of AT in AMTA members products.

    I suspect the truth is AMTA were leaned on bu the Home Office and they rushed a cheap, bodgy and inadequate solution into place which if the inadequacy of which gets out into the public domain could damage their credibility with the HO and thus they want us to shut up.

    Of course some might argued that it was their penny pinching and incomptenece that got us into this in the first place.

    It certainly seems that the only way out for AMTA members is to bite the bullet, reengineer their rifles like Steyr have, take the cost hit and remove AT.

    Sooner or later someone at the HO is going to look our way and notice that the solution implemented by AMTA is half-baked and utterly and woefully inadequate. If AMTA aren't able to offer a more credible solution then we could well see very harsh legislation come our way.
     

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